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A Conversation with National Health Care Leader Dr Cheryl Pegus 84 - Descriptive Transcript

- So hello everyone, my
name is M'Lissa Brennan

and I wanna welcome you today.

I'd like to thank you for joining us.

I work in the Institutional Advancement

and Alumni Relations Office
at Brandeis University

and we're very excited to have with us

as a guest speaker today, Dr.
Cheryl Pegus, class of '84.

She'll be speaking with us today

on several topics, how
new medical technology

and treatments are improving
health outcomes for patients.

The state of healthcare workforce,

and how to empower clinicians
within their communities.

And finally, our progress
in advancing health equity

and access to quality care.

I think we're all going
to learn and benefit

from what she has to share with us.

And she is not only an
incredibly accomplished leader

in her field, but is also a
very inspiring positive person.

But before we begin, I'd like

to introduce Kate Stutz, who
will moderate our talk today.

She is the Director of
pre-health advising and has been

at Brandeis since 2016.

Previously she advised pre-health students

at the University of Wisconsin

while earning her master's degree

in African-American studies and
her PhD in literary studies.

So without further ado, I'm
gonna turn it over to Kate.

Thank you.

- Hi everyone. Good evening.

Thanks for joining us.

So I have the great pleasure
of introducing Dr. Pegus.

She is currently the Managing Director,

supporting the Morgan
Health Ventures team,

and previously she was

the Executive Vice President
of Health and Wellness

at Walmart, leading the
company's healthcare vision

and consumer facing programs
designed to raise the standard

of care for millions of Americans.

She's been consistently recognized as one

of the country's most
influential healthcare leaders

and clinical executives.

So we're so, so happy to
have here with us today.

So I will start by
asking some questions and

if you all have questions, you're welcome

to use the Q&A feature and
I can sort of pose those

for the conversation.

But I think Dr. Pegus is gonna
start by saying a few words.

- Thank you very much for
having me. Hello everyone.

Great to hear how many
people are interested

in healthcare overall as a profession,

but I'm sure just for our everyday lives.

As you heard, I left Brandeis
in 1984 after going pre-med,

but also majoring in Afri
and Afri-American Studies

and really enjoyed my time.

I think the things I
took from me or that lots

of my classmates were also
pre-med and that the work

that we were going to do going
forward was really grounded

and for many of you I'm sure
those late night conversations

or time spent on the
weekend thinking about,

how do we contribute to
making things better for me

that was going to be in healthcare?

And so thrilled to be invited back.

I've met Melissa before and
Kate and looking forward

to chatting with you today and
hopefully answering questions

that you may have.

- Great, so to get us
started, I was hoping

that you could tell us a little
bit about your experience

at Brandeis and in what ways you feel

like Brandeis prepared you
for a career in medicine?

- Yeah, so the first thing I would say,

Brandeis's academic rigor,
made medical school seem doable

and in some classes even easy.

So I will tell everyone there,

as you're thinking about medical school,

you're being really
well prepared for that.

I think the second is I had
a lot of support at Brandeis

in pursuing Korean medicine and some of

that was just acknowledging the work

and how to manage my time and studying.

So Gerstenzang was the science library

and I could be there until 10 o'clock

at night sometimes just
getting my work done.

But it really enabled me
to learn how to do a lot

of project management, time
management and still have fun.

Which I thought was really great

for the way classes were organized.

I would also say that Brandeis
really also provided support

in allowing us to learn what a profession

in medicine really looked like.

After my junior year in
college, I did a summer program

at Cornell, which is
where I ended up going

to medical school and just
knowing that those are the steps

that you should take to one, determine

if this is the right profession for you.

And two, beginning to
understand the things

that may be needed in medical school

'cause I got to spend a summer

with medical students was
just really inspiring.

And so I think academically
prepared early entry

into what medicine could allow.

And then thirdly, I think really
figuring out that anything

that you could contribute,
I double majored

in Afri-American Studies, as I mentioned,

of combining your own personal life story

into what you were going to
do as a career was something

that was also really encouraged.

- Great.

And kind of building off of that,

so you mentioned you're a double major

in biology and African and
African American studies.

How do you see these two
fields connecting in medicine

and informing, you know,
your professional experience?

- So when I got to Brandeis,

I mean I will tell you my deep knowledge

of Afri and Afri-American
Studies was not there.

So there was a lot of great learning.

And learning, not just about
older treatments in medicine,

but learning across the discipline

of Afri and African American studies.

And what I will say is what it
allowed me to do is recognize

that when you don't know
enough about something,

you may repeat things that
have already been tried

or you may not be thinking broadly enough.

I think many of you have
probably heard the term,

health disparities, health equity.

I think we all think about,

how do different communities
experience just life overall,

in general.

For me, I look at it

through a very specific healthcare lens.

My double major allowed me to look back

at how people are integrated
into receiving healthcare.

What their access looks like,
what their needs look like,

and on my end, what's the
right training to be able

to provide that?

So it's, I think it gives
you a humbling aspect

of, you may not know all the answers, even

if you're well trained in science,

but you've also have to
understand how people seek care,

what's the trust related
to that, what occurs?

I spent a lot of time

with Dr. Pouncey who isn't there anymore

and he knew I was going
pre-med and he would say to me,

"So today in this class on
sociology, what will you learn

that will make you a better doctor?"

And it was just a great
way to have someone say,

"Don't just learn the knowledge,

how will you apply it going forward?"

And that thoughtfulness, I
think hopefully I've continued

to use in the way I'm
combining both of those.

A lot of my work has
been on health equity.

And health equity is simply
about access to healthcare, not

across just race, ethnic groups, gender.

It's simply good access to healthcare.

And I think I started a lot of that by

at least understanding
historical and then reading

and continuing to learn today

of how you combine these fields.

- Okay, great.

And how did you develop
your role and career

as a health executive?

Like when did you decide
to move, you know, more out

of the clinical care realm and

into this health executive role?

- So as a physician today, I think many

of us see one patient
and we take care of them

and we provide the best care that we can.

And then we'll see another patient.

And on average, you know, we see

that you can probably provide care

for what we call a panel of
patients, maybe 300 people

in a year, maybe a little bit more.

What you see in healthcare is

that it's a systematic
change that's needed.

And to do that you've gotta start thinking

of what are the systems of change?

So the example that I would give is that

in healthcare we know
cardiovascular disease

is the number one cause of death.

It's the number one cause
of death for women and

for a long time underappreciated.

And then for underserved
minorities as well.

Well you could see one
patient at a time and attempt

to impact that or you could try

to influence, do all clinical studies

that we do, what we call research trials.

Do they include enough
women, enough people

of different races and ethnicities?

So we understand how
treatments impact them.

To do that, you've gotta understand how

to conduct clinical
trials overall in the US.

Now it's actually my
first entry into trying

to broaden my own sphere
of understanding that

if the treatments have
not included everyone,

we see different results.

By the way, for a long
time, lots of studies

in cardiovascular disease
did not include women.

And so devices that were designed

for men who were larger were
too large to be used in women

and that's because they weren't included

in the clinical studies.

And so first I started with
clinical studies and then

after you learn that you realize,

it doesn't matter how good the science is,

if physicians don't understand
how people pay for healthcare

or how people get insurance
and how they utilize it.

So I went on to learn
about health insurance

and really I think a really key component

for us is understanding that
how healthcare is financed

in the US determines a lot
of the outcomes that we see.

And so it's really
moving from an individual

to a scaled national approach

of how do we change
our healthcare systems?

I went back to school after medical school

and got a master's in public
health and the combination

of those have really helped me look

at this holistically,
nationally and globally.

- Great, so if you sort
of talked about the need

to take a systematic approach
to really influence the system

and provide better care.

So how do you think healthcare
is gonna be changing

over the next 10 years?

So for students that are in undergrad now

and maybe hitting the workforce in

like 10 to 15 years, what
changes do you expect to see?

- So the first thing

that I would say is
everybody who's listening

to this should go into
healthcare medicine somehow

because there are so many different ways

to have an impact in healthcare.

You've heard me talk a
little bit about working

in the insurance field
or the research field,

but technology has a huge
part to play in healthcare.

So think of many patients who
want to be seen while they're

at home in their robes and
they're getting their care

through Telehealth.

Well, to do that through Telehealth video,

kind of the way we're doing this

on Zoom today, you've gotta
have a platform that is secure

so that your healthcare
information cannot be shared.

You need a healthcare
background to build in some

of those safety requirements and also

to design maybe some AI chat
features that allows you

as a patient or a consumer to
get a lot of information in so

that the time that you spend

with your clinician is
really quality time based

on the input information in
a way that's easy for you

in a health literate manner.

That ecosystem being built
out is really important.

It will allow us to scale the number

of healthcare professionals
in the country,

but allow us to treat people

and share information even globally.

So that technology platform care

anywhere you are is important.

And it may also lower the cost of care.

So if we've got data aggregated
in a manner that allows us

to know who you are,
authenticate that we're talking

to the right person based
on their health information,

you can not only ask questions
about what someone may want

to talk to you about
today, but if you notice

that they haven't had their colonoscopy

or immunizations, you can
do those preventive services

at the same time.

The second area that's changing a lot

in healthcare is getting
more care overall done

in your home.

So today if you get really sick, you go

to the emergency room and
when you go to the hospital.

There's a new field that's
called hospital at home

that is growing pretty rapidly
where it doesn't matter

how sick you are, depending on
what services can be provided

in the home, they are
provided in the home.

And that's really important because

as you get older, when you
spend time in hospitals

and you know you have sunrise,
sunset changes in just being

in a new environment.

It can really change how
you cognitively recognize

what's going on versus being
at home with your family

and having that comfort.

And we see a lot of people
as they get hospitalized

and go home have this huge adjustment.

If we can take that out, that
would be really important.

We're having a large aging demographic

in this country, frankly across the world.

How we are providing care

for aging family members is important.

We look at caregivers as a key component.

We're using nurse practitioners,
community health workers,

pharmacists a lot more, we
think about team-based care.

I think you're hearing me say
there is absolutely nothing

that isn't being rethought in healthcare

and providing new opportunities.

It's being invested in by Silicon Valley.

It's changing payment
models, changing the number

of jobs that you have in healthcare.

It's a pretty wonderful
time to be in healthcare.

And there's no longer the
traditional just a physician role

or a nurse role.

We've expanded a lot of that

and you know, it's what we need to do.

- Great, so I'm gonna take a
question from the audience.

"Did you always think that
you were gonna be interested

in medicine or were there other fields

that you were considering?"

- That's great.

So I knew frankly since I was 12 years old

that I was gonna go into medicine.

I had a grandparent who was
ill when I was a child and had

to care for him, my grandfather.

And one, I liked the
idea of being responsible

for helping someone feel better and care

for them even though
I was changing a wound

and changing bandages, you
know, I was 12 years old.

But I really liked being able to provide

that type of empathetic care.

And I think the second
piece of it is I realized

that he should get better care.

And I think the commitment
for me was I'm going to try

to do that going forward.

Didn't take away from some
of my other interests.

I actually really like to dance.

Actually graduated from Brandeis early

and spent some time dancing.

My family will tell you
they too have spent way

too much time going to do dancing things.

But I've continued to feel as

if healthcare allows me to do everything.

Dancing's great physical activity.

I love to cook and I'm from
Trinidad so I love kind of

that Caribbean cooking and
I can do healthy cooking.

So you hear, no matter how
we slice this, I'm gonna come

back and everyone on this call
should go into healthcare.

- Great.

And then I'll take another
question from the audience.

So there's a question about, you know,

"How did you manage your time
while you were at Brandeis?

Like what sorts of things
were you involved with?"

Whether they were jobs or
other student organizations.

What kept you busy outside of class?

- Yeah, so you know,
I'll tell you the story.

When I got to Brandeis, I'm from New York

in case you didn't recognize
the accent, I'm actually

from Brooklyn.

I got to Brandeis and I had gone

to a New York City public school.

I was raised by a wonderful
single mom and I'd gone

from my public school where
I by the way had thought,

gosh, you know, you got into Brandeis,

you're doing really well.

And then I got to Brandeis

and you know, there are kids
there who had taken AP classes.

My high school never
offered any AP classes.

There are kids who were
able to be exempted

from many classes that I had to take.

And so my first year at Brandeis
was really an adjustment.

It was a recognition that preparation

for college really varied.

And I come from Trinidad,
as I mentioned, I'd been

in the country about three
years and that was eye-opening

to me frankly of the
variations and preparations

and you know, what if, right?

Different primary education.

But I'd done really well in my SATs.

And I got to Brandeis

and I think what was really
wonderful about Brandeis

was they'd seen people
like me before really well

in your SATs but hadn't had
a broad academic curriculum

in Eula High School.

And I remember being
told, "It'll be okay."

You can have any support."
I got a tutor for calculus.

I mentioned that I was
raised by a single mom.

So I actually had work study.

Actually my freshman and
sophomore year, I worked

at Sherman's Cafeteria

in the kosher kitchen
during my junior year.

Senior year, I moved up from that job

to the financial aid
office, the kosher kitchen.

However, I also got really
good food anytime I wanted.

So I remembered that.

So I had work study, I
needed a tutor for calculus

and I was going pre-med.

What really helped me during

that time, my mom would
ship these boxes of food and

so all of my friends
would get to enjoy that.

And then I had a lot of friends, you know,

in your freshman dorm who would,

on Saturday nights, I won't
tell you everything we did,

but just know the same
things you are doing,

we did Saturday night and
I was able to do that.

And then Sunday I'd go study.

Sunday evening was always
my big workout evening.

So my weekends became Cheryl turn it off

so you can do other things.

Monday through Friday I
was totally leaned in.

Probably did all of my
classes, did my job.

And I was at the library until 10 or 11.

By my sophomore year into my junior year,

that started getting better.

So you're hearing someone say

her first semester she got lots of Cs.

By my sophomore junior year that got,

that looked really good

by my junior year, it
was pretty, pretty great.

And so that balance of getting
a handle on my academics

and making it a priority
is what I did early on.

And as I learned

to do time management,
got really more confident

in my own capabilities
and being able to survive

in medical school and
do well, that changed.

I also worked as a volunteer in Waltham

with seniors going into their homes.

And that was actually a
lot of fun and relaxing.

Today if I look back, if I had thought

of this, those were the things
right that were helping me

with my own mental health.

The ability to take
breaks, the ability to care

for others, the ability
to laugh throughout.

Which today we tell everyone to do.

Back then just hearing how old I am, 1980,

in early 1980s, we didn't
talk about it that way,

but all of my advisors would say,

"What are you doing for yourself?"

And that really was very thematic.

I mean even Afri-American studies, right?

I was learning something

that I just didn't know enough about and

that felt, you know,
really wonderful as well.

- Great. So I'll pose another
question from the audience.

"So there seems to be a
lot of interest sort of

in your transition into more of

like a healthcare leadership.

So what steps do you take in your career?"

Like what choices do you make
in order to get into more

of a health leadership role?

- It does require additional expertise

beyond medical school.

So that, I would say, you
heard me mention, I went

and got a master's in public health.

I actually also spent
some time at which I did

at Columbia in New York
and also took some classes

in the legal department
because what we learn

in medical school is the
science of caring for patients

and the different
disciplines, be it cardiology,

OBGYN, nephrology about
really mastering how you care

for someone based on
their medical condition.

That's really important work.

But there are many things
you don't learn enough of

in medical school, which I'm
working now on a lot to change.

You don't learn a lot about
the business of medicine.

So if you're seeing patients

and you're prescribing medicines

and your patients can't afford it,

you should understand
what's called a formulary.

You should understand what's generic,

you should understand patient programs

that manufacturers may have.

Those are skills that are
absolutely necessary for people

to take the best care of themselves.

Particularly people in
underserved communities.

So you've gotta learn and
understand some of that.

The ways I did it is
I realized after being

in training, I think I was
maybe a second year resident.

You know, we were caring for
patients, I had my own clinic

and patients would sign up
for me to be their physician.

And part of the reason wasn't

because they thought I was
a great clinician, it's

because I looked like them.

And they felt that there were things

that they could ask me
that they weren't asking.

And so affordability of
drugs, would it be possible

for us to do a phone call
for a visit because they had

to take four hours off of
work to come to the doctor.

And so just frankly
interacting with patients.

They were living the things
I had lived in my own family.

And if you asked the questions
of how do you fix that?

Medical education by
itself doesn't fix that.

I want to fix those things.

And so going into the
different disciplines

of healthcare allows me to focus

on those, bringing my
clinical expertise with me.

Bringing the importance
of the patient comes first

to the way we say in medicine.

The patient is at the
center of everything we do.

That combination, I think allows
you to be able to not think

of this just from a how many
patients are in the hospital

and how many beds do we have?

It begins to have you think

of what are we doing when people leave

to make sure they have the right food so

that they don't have to come back?

What are we ensuring in
their follow up appointments?

You get a 360 view.

There's a phrase and a discipline
called the quadruple aim.

The quadruple aim looks at
the care, the quality of care,

the cost of care, and then
the people providing the care.

And so that discipline and
that framework allows you

to think about healthcare
the way I definitely do.

How do I touch each of those buttons?

And all of the stakeholders
be they a payer, be it they

a someone who's developing
new therapies and innovating

and clinicians who include pharmacists,

community health workers, researchers.

They all have a seat at that table

because we win when we work
together in lowering cost

and in innovating.

- Great, and I'm wondering
what would be one

of your proudest accomplishments
as a cardiologist?

- Wow. So let's think
about that a little bit.

I still feel there's so much to do,

so I don't feel I've achieved (chuckles)

my proudest accomplishment yet.

I would tell you that one of the things

that I'm really happy about

in 1992, '93, I became the
first, the second woman ever

and the first African-American woman

to become a cardiologist

at Cornell Medical Training Program.

And that allowed us to, took
another five years to really go

after how do we diversify the workforce

because the experiences

that I wish just sharing
what patients we were seeing

that occurring and we
recognized we should do more

along those lines.

And so in 2000 I started a scholarship

at Cornell for women
and minority students.

And every year since then
we've had a student go through

and just makes me really
happy that, you know, a lot

of people who may not think about medicine

because they think they can't afford it.

They're bringing a lot of these
naturally lived experiences

and we're really broadening
out our medical discipline.

- Great, so I'm wondering because I think

that, you know, health
equity training, at least

in medical school is sort of
a hot button issue as of late.

The AAMC published a report
talking about the importance

of it and there was, you
know, a lot of pushback

from different avenues about the place

that health equity training
should have in medical school.

So, you know, if you were in a position

to sort of create a curricula
for medical schools,

like what topics do you
wish would be covered

that maybe weren't covered
in your own training?

- Yeah, so you heard me
talk about one of them

before the business of medicine.

And you can leave medical
school and not understand how

to do the coding for
billing that needs to happen

as you go into practice.

And so I think understanding
what's required

to be successful in the
business of medicine instead

of us clinicians going,

"Oh no, we'll get a
business person to do that."

We actually should
understand it ourselves.

And if you've gone

through medical school, you
can understand it yourself.

So I think that's one area.

What I will say is that
part of what we've seen

in healthcare is that healthcare differs

by your zip code, right?

In healthcare we sometimes
say your zip code

is more important than
your genetic code because

in different parts of the country and

in Boston, you know, you
can go one zip code over

and the life expectancy
decreases by 10 to 15 years.

And so what we have to think about

in healthcare is how do we change that?

Because you can do a lot of
training on the front end

and say to people,

"Hey, when you are seeing
a woman who may complain

of back pain or left elbow pain,

that could be a woman
having a heart attack."

It doesn't present the same
way as it does in a man

or hypertension starts 10 years earlier

in someone who's African-American

or recently you saw the
tools that were used

to measure your oxygen levels don't work

on different skin tones.

That's a lot that you can
put in on the front end.

What you really want to do
is help people at the time

that they're taking care of a patient.

And what we call that is
actual point of care solutions

so that you embed different tools so

that people, when they're seeing someone,

they have the demographic information

and clinical information.

And AI is being utilized to say, hey,

for this patient, think of these things.

Hey, here's something
you may want to look at.

Not being judgmental about

whether you treat different
patients differently,

but saying it's a busy long
day, we're gonna help you

at the point of care.

The second way that's really important

is changing payment models in care.

And so there's a payment
model called value-based care.

It's sometimes called accountable care.

You mentioned, you know, 10, 15 years

from now, what are we going to see?

We're going to see a
lot of value-based care.

And value-based care really says

that when you're seeing someone,

if they have diabetes, here are
all the things you should do

for that person because
we've researched this.

We have what's called
evidence-based guidelines.

You should treat them according

to evidence-based guidelines.

And if you do, we will
pay you for doing that.

And you will receive an incentive.

When you shift payment models
that says you have to go

through actually doing all
the things you have to do

that's evidence-based because

that's the only way you
will be compensated.

You start seeing a shift

of everyone treating
everyone they see that way

because there is a carrot
associated with that.

And so I think payment
models changing is really,

really important for
achieving health equity.

And the last one obviously
is in underserved communities

or in rural communities,
what we know is that people

from those communities go back

to those communities to care for them.

So ensuring that we
are having people enter

the medical profession
from different communities

across the country really
helps us in getting people

to thrive and want to
go back to communities

that their families live in.

- Okay, great. So we have a question.

"Were there any challenges

that surprised you when you
were co-founding A New Beat?"

- Yeah. (chuckles)

So A New Beat is an organization
that's really focused

on how do we get where most heart disease

in the world occurs in women.

Most early mortality occurs

in minority populations,
African-Americans, Latinos.

And so if you know that
data, you should focus

on that, right?

Just seems really easy if we lift a boat

in those areas, we can improve
care across the country.

Many people did not know the data.

I mean, it continues

to surprise me how many
people don't know the data.

So I think in starting that,
being able to use my voice

and my relationships to say,

no, no, no, here's why
this is really important,

was a big learning, setting
up a not-for-profit 5013c,

just, you know, the normal
process in doing that.

Once we started raising the voice of

that, you know, think about
when I started A New Beat

to today, when you hear everyone
talk about health equity.

Now people reach out to us.

In the early days we
were doing introductions

and I think introducing it in a manner

of wanna share what the
data says, wanna share

what we're doing, not, oh
my gosh people, can we jump

on this right away?

So really lots of learnings
done, how do you communicate

for engagement and partnerships

versus come on, chop
chop, this is something

we should have been doing.

And so now it's relatively easy

to your point, it's become the standard.

Back then it was not.

- Great, so I'm wondering
if there are other things

that you wanna share about
your new role at Morgan

or what your goals are there?

- Yeah, you know, I've
done different things

in my career.

Have spent a lot of time
learning in different areas.

But building out
infrastructure, you can't care

for population unless
you know that population.

And with my work at
Aetna, we would've first

to collect race and ethnicity data

across a 30 million
membership really allows you

to then say, "Okay, how do
we tailor what we're doing?"

We now know gender, race, ethnicity,

we can do different solutions.

Did some of the early
payment reform programs

that I'm talking about
now for value-based care.

Back then we called it
pay for performance.

Really trying to shift
towards that area and recently

at Walmart, looking at rural
and underserved communities

and giving that access even if
it's through a retail channel

to be the front door to healthcare.

So those are all for me, really
important building blocks

that are scaled sustainable.

But we still have a lot to
do and we still have a lot

that we want to innovate.

And working with this incredible team

at Morgan Health, it's
really to help innovate.

And innovate in a holistic manner

where you can bring your expertise

as a clinician, your
expertise in having worked

as a payer, worked in
retail health, worked

in different healthcare
settings, to be able to bring

that together to ensure that the things

that we invest in, fill gaps
that we have in healthcare.

And allow us to improve
health equity, look

at value-based care payment
models, focus on some

of our chronic conditions
and move us earlier

into care and prevention

because we understand
what we should be doing.

Because we've changed
medical education to focus

on nutrition, early activities

that help people do what they're doing.

So it's kind of coming full circle.

It's like once you learn a lot it's like,

"Okay, can we do this
from the starting point?"

And I think my work at
Morgan Health is really

to focus on that.

- Great, and what do you think are some

of the biggest challenges
for physicians today?

And you know, what advice would you give

to those who are sort of
going into that field?

- So the first I've already
mentioned go into the field.

It is an incredible field.

I have two children, I
was able to take time off.

I'm a cardiologist, go back to
practice, go into the field.

It's a wonderful community

and every day you get up, you feel

like you're doing something great.

What I will say is we're a
lot more knowledgeable now

about taking care

of yourself, what I
call the quadruple aim.

By the way, when I was

in training, it was called a triple aim.

We added quadruplet it
to remind us to take care

of yourself, your own mental
health, taking vacations.

Ensuring that you're getting
enough physical activity.

And so what I would say to
people, it's a little bit

of what you learn when you're in college,

which is how do you do time
management for yourself

of how much time am I studying?

How much time am I spending on my family?

How much time I'm spending on myself?

Don't think that those skill
sets aren't translatable.

They are probably some of
the most important skillsets.

If you can have an afterschool activity,

you may have a job the
way I did for work study

and you're having fun with your friends

and maintaining your
grades, you've got a lot of

that down, take it with you.

And the only other thing I would
say is care for each other.

I think, you know, we
sometimes don't ask someone

we see who's struggling, how can I help?

In healthcare, in
medicine, medical school,

it's the first time you'll
be dealing with a cadaver.

I mean there are a lot of new things

that you have, it is
okay to raise your hand

and ask the help.

Frankly I get nervous when people say,

"No, I've got this, I
don't need any help."

I think in medical school
in particular, we're trying

to teach you everything
we've learned in science

from day one until you joined.

And we say that science
has rapidly expanded even

in the last four years.

So just imagine what that feels like.

Ask people how are they doing
it? How are they succeeding?

Healthcare is a team-based sport.

Having a team around
you to help you succeed

in medical school is
really, really critical.

But I think you learn
it at Brandeis as well.

- Great.

And what piece of advice would you give

to your former self at Brandeis?

If you were gonna give yourself,
your former self advice?

- That's really funny.

I would say that, you know, you may think

that you have no idea if
you are cut out for this

or if you will even do it,
you'll be thrilled just

to take the MCATs, much
less do well on it.

But what you should remember is

that the relationships that you formed

to people who, I didn't
have a driver's license

in medical in college,
the people who drove you

to the Kaplan courses, those relationships

that you formed, those will be the ones

that will be there for
you for absolutely ever.

And investing the time, whether
it was microwaving things

in cups that became your meal
late at night at midnight.

You remember those with joy.

I will tell you that
my mentors today, even

in medicine will always say to me,

"Remember that the time that
you spend with your family

and with your friends, that's
where you're really growing

because you let your guard down

so that you can take in
feedback and information.

And so that for me, I'd say I probably

could have spent more time
on it, but man was it great.

And a lot of my friends
today are people I went

to school with and they're not

in medicine, they're
doing different things.

But they were there.

They watched me go from
the Brooklyn person

to going to Cornell Medical School.

So they know all the stories.

- That's amazing.

So I'm wondering too, like if you...

So you sort of mentioned like some

of the sort of mental
challenges of this path.

Have you ever experienced
like imposter syndrome,

like wondering if this was a
place you were supposed to be?

Because when I talk with
students, I think a lot

of our students at Brandeis
sort of struggling with

that at different levels.

- Yeah. By the way, am I not
doing that now? (chuckles)

So you know what I will
tell you is there's a bit

of getting safe and
comfortable with what you do.

So you almost conquer imposter syndrome.

And that for me could have been trained

to be a doctor, became a
cardiologist, stay practicing doing

that and that way you build expertise.

When I went to Pfizer,
I will tell you I felt

like I was the stupidest
person in healthcare

because everyone, even a marketing MBA

understood more about medicine than I did.

They understood that it doesn't matter

what the doctor told you
and wrote in a prescription,

if you can't afford it,
right, it's so simple.

Just not something that I thought about.

And that actually my time

at Pfizer, probably my most
humbling and my most growth

in recognizing that physicians
didn't know everything

in healthcare and we
actually needed to partner

with different disciplines
for us to change

and make this healthcare system better.

And I learned a ton.

It was also a place where
a company invested in me.

You know, I had a coach and I got

to share kind of the dream fantasy

of I'm gonna change healthcare,

please help me and tell me how to do that.

And I would say my other big
jumps, you know, I jumped

into health insurance.

I mean I knew nothing, for
those of you who know, Drake,

"Started at the bottom, now we're here."

That's happened to me in
many phases of my career.

Retail health, I was the
first chief medical officer

at Walgreens.

Had to kind of develop what does that mean

and what does it look like?

And so yes, imposter
syndrome or yes, risk.

Yes you have to learn a lot.

But I'm pretty comfortable
saying to people,

"I have no idea what you just
said. Please repeat that."

I try to do that really early
in any role that I have.

'Cause two years into
it, people are gonna go,

"Really? You don't know that."

But for your first two years, I'd say go

for asking every stupid
question that you have. (laughs)

That by the way, if there's
one secret to success

that I share with you,
it's that. (chuckles)

- Okay, great.

Is there anything else that
you would like to share

that we haven't already covered?

- Yeah, I look, I owe
my career to Brandeis.

You've heard me talk about
coming from high school

and needing to be prepared
to go to medical school,

but you've also heard me
talk about needing help

to succeed throughout.

I would just say to everyone asking

for help is a sign of strength,
is a sign of leadership.

Trying to do it on your own and failing

and using a lot of time
is not helpful to you.

Once you get really comfortable

in asking others about things
that you need and trying

to find those partners,
those paths, I think

that's where you really grow.

And yes, you may feel like an imposter,

but you're an imposter in
training and in training

to become someone who
knows what paths to take.

So I would just recommend
that people think about that,

to not try to struggle
through things your own.

There's way too much that
others have done before you

that you should be able to quickly learn.

- Okay, great.

So, and I'm wondering, so
maybe one last question here.

So it seems like throughout
your career you've found ways

to combine your interest in medicine

with other interests you have.

Like you're published cookbook author.

You mentioned your interest

in dance, which is really amazing.

I know many pre-health
students that are involved

with dance at Brandeis, so I'm
sure that there will be folks

that are happy to hear that.

Why do you think that's important, right?

I think so many pre-health
students sort of imagine

that there's some sort of
checklist of things that they have

to do in order to be
prepared for medical school,

but it's clear that you've
also left space for some

of your own interests.

So why has that been something

that you've sort of continued to pursue?

- So is there a traditional
way to be a good doctor or

to be a good human giving back to society?

The answer is no.

The answer is can we figure
out what works for us

to give back to others?

But don't forget how you
give back to yourself.

Sometimes we prioritize everything

and my husband would say,

"It's the kids maybe hanging
out with people work."

And he sometimes fits into there somehow

'cause he's not asking for a lot.

I think for all of us,
it's that prioritization

that we have to think about.

For you to be able to
have really good output.

And now I'm going to
go purely neurological.

What the science tells
us is the plasticity

of neurons requires us to be able to see

and do something different
for us to be able

to achieve even higher
in a particular area

that we're really deeply leaned in on.

And so there is science
behind wanting to make sure

that you broaden those interests.

But frankly, the other part
of it is you don't care

for patients or work in a hospital, work

in a research lab all the time.

You do other things. You have to eat.

You've gotta get physical activity,

you've gotta get fresh air,
you have to form relationships.

We downplay it sometimes, right?

Particularly when I was in training

and we would do, you know, 36 hours

on call, we downed play how
important those aspects are.

We now know today that being
able to get enough sleep

to be able to do
something besides the work

that may be stressful, spending time

with others not only
impact the development

of neurological diseases as you age,

but obviously impacts
your cardiovascular health

and most importantly your mental health.

And so these are things I enjoy.

It is okay, if I am late for something

or I'm handing something in late,

I'm okay managing that.

But if I don't spend the
summers with my family trying

to figure out our next cookbook,

they will talk about me forever.

And you know, we have a
saying, I think it may even be

in my brand yearbook that,

"I can be replaced in all
aspects of my life, except

as a mother and a daughter."

And, you know, it really
just kind of grounds me

into reminding myself
about the important things

that I should be doing.

So I balance and manage that time.

Most important thing that
I've learned is being able

to say no, I do not have
to be at every event.

I do not have to sign up to
be it a potluck or something.

It is okay to say no and
take some time for myself.

So you know, I'm probably
still learning how well to do

that, but I've gotten a lot
better than I used to be.

And so I think that's
really, really important.

- I always tell my students
every yes is also it needs

to be a no to something else, (laughs)

otherwise you just get overloaded.

- You can't do it.

- Well, thank you so much
for this conversation.

It was really wonderful

to hear about, you know,
your experiences at Brandeis

and all the wisdom that you had

to share sort of about
the healthcare industry.

So I'll turn it over to M'Lissa.

- All right, great.

So this was really, really
amazing. So thank you so much.

Really appreciate all
your knowledge, sharing

so many great insights, words of wisdom.

And I know everyone
probably feels the same.

And we'd love to host
you sometime on campus

in person when the weather
is warmer, of course.

Right? No snow, right?

So on behalf of all the viewers

that joined us, thank you for watching.

I'd also like to give a special
shout out to the sponsors

of today's talk, which
includes Pre-Health Advising,

Academic Services, and
the Hiatt Career Center.

So again, thank you everyone,
and we're gonna close.

All right.

Have a good rest of day.
- Thank you.

- All right, bye.