Arnon Shorr:
My name is Arnon Shorr. I'm a filmmaker, screenwriter, graphic novelist and proud alum. This event is being co-hosted by Michelle Miller, who you will see very shortly. Who is an actress, she hosts a wonderful podcast called Mentors on the Mic, which you should subscribe to. And she's also an alum. We have some really exciting guests today.
Arnon Shorr:
They are directors, in some cases writers, producers as well here in Hollywood doing really, really great work. We're going to talk to them soon. Before we start, one of the things that we like to do is take a little bit of a survey. You'll see a survey thing pop up on your screen in a second. We'd like to get a little bit of a sense of who it is we're talking to. Are we talking to alumni? To current students? Friends of alumni?
Arnon Shorr:
And this next question that you'll see shortly is we want to find out if you're in the industry or not, how much shop should we be talking, versus how much we might want to explain a little bit. So, while you're answering the survey questions I'm going to go through a little bit of the business to tell you a little bit about who we are, what we do. And I apologize for reading off a script, but I'm not an actor, so I'm terrible at memorizing things.
Arnon Shorr:
Today's event and this series are being put together under the auspices of the Brandeis Arts Network. We're a group exclusive to Brandeis undergraduate and graduate alumni that enables anyone involved in the arts, both professionals and enthusiasts alike to engage, share, and experience the vast array of artistic endeavors of fellow Brandeis on campus, across the country, and abroad.
Arnon Shorr:
The Brandeis Arts Network also encompasses and supports the efforts of the Performing Arts Network and the Brandeis alumni in film and television. You can find Brandeis Arts Network, the Performing Arts Network, and Brenda's alumni in film and television on Facebook. And don't forget to mark your calendars for the next panel, which is going to be Tuesday, July 27th. We try to space them on Tuesdays, roughly one month apart.
Arnon Shorr:
All right. Let's take a quick look at our survey results. I'm going to share the results now. All right. We've got a lot of folks who are here out of general interest, which is wonderful. And then a few people looking to grow their career or to enter into the film and television industry. That's a good split. It looks like we've got mostly Brandeis alumni in the group as well, which is exciting. Going to clear the poll results.
Arnon Shorr:
All right. So, before I kick things over to Michelle, just want to remind everybody here, if you are on camera, that's great. Just please remember that you're on camera. And remember, please stay on mute while the panelists are talking, just so we don't hear too much background chatter or any of those other unexpected sounds. And with that, Michelle, would you like to take it away?
Michelle Miller:
I would love to take it away. Thank you Arnon. Guys, this is so exciting. I am personally loving the people that we brought today. Thank you guys all for attending. I'm going to give everyone a chance to just give them a little, one minute intro on who they are, what they do. So, let's start with Rosemary. Rosemary, take it away.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
Okay. Nice to be here. Thank you so much. So, I went to Brandeis and got out and tried to pursue a career in film and worked in Independent Film in New York for many years and couldn't get a lot of headway, but learned a lot from casting to, boom, to one person news crew, to you name it, I did it, and then could not get money to make a movie. I wrote a script, took me 8-years to finally save the money with a little book next to my bed.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
I kept every paycheck I made, got enough money to get it show, went to Sundance with it. It was called Acts of Worship. And then, was back in my day job, after I went around the world to festivals and Independent Spirit Awards and all the stuff you would hope to happen with an indie film and then back at my day job.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
So then was lucky enough to get into a fellowship for John Wells, his Women and Minority Fellowship that he had through Warner Brothers and then transitioned into television. And then, took off from there. Well, I should say, trudged along before it took off. And then, I made another feature and I'm working on my third feature now and I've just been directing television for many years and creating my own stuff at this point in my career.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
So, the second feature I made is Silver Skies too, just to say that. And I'm working on my third feature, so life is good. Happy to be here.
Michelle Miller:
Oh, exciting. I'm going to definitely have some follow up questions on that, but some of the projects you've worked on, and there's so many, like Rescue Me, Law & Order, The Unusual, Criminal Minds, Elementary, Dickinson, which I believe we have Michael Sugar who produces that. I don't know if you know Michael?
Rosemary Rodriguez:
Yes.
Michelle Miller:
But he's just... I love bringing the Brandeis connections, that's so amazing. So, lots of great stuff. I can't wait to hear more about that. Jason, would you like to go next?
Jason Ensler:
Sure. Thank you. And thanks for having me. I graduated Brandeis in 1992. And then, I went to USC film school. When I got out, I was hired to do a piece for the 50th anniversary of Brandeis which became a mockumentary called Searching for Alison Porchnik, which included an appearance by Marshall Herskovitz. And that actually led to a gig at NBC promo where I stayed for several years. And we launched the West Wing, Freaks and Geeks, Law & Order SVU, Will & Grace.
Jason Ensler:
And then, I transitioned into episodic television and pilot directing. Most recently I produced and directed The Exorcist TV series for Fox, The Passage, and the second season of Love, Victor is on Hulu premiere two weeks ago. So check that out, and that's me.
Michelle Miller:
Amazing. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. I'm going to ask Courtney if she can add the link for Searching for Alison Porchnik, because it's amazing. There we go. It's amazing. And you get all these incredible alumni, it's all on this awesome plot of trying to find an alum named Alison Porchnik. And let's just say we have some really great non Brandeis and Brandeis cameos that are incredible. And now, last but not least, Marshall, if you could introduce yourself.
Marshall Herskovitz:
Sure. I went to Brandeis in the antediluvian age. So, many years ago, I don't even want to say, and decided I wanted to be a filmmaker and came to Hollywood, and of course, couldn't get hired, couldn't do anything. What Rosemary described about herself sounded very familiar. In those days all you had was the yellow pages. And no one would hire me. I ended up in film school at the American Film Institute, which was a great experience and managed to claw my way into the business as a writer, even though I intended to be a director.
Marshall Herskovitz:
I finally became a director after I became a producer and hired myself to direct. So it's a tough business, and it's always been tough. It's tough now. But in every iteration of this business, there are opportunities for creative people if they're willing to be supple enough to figure out how they can fit into what the business needs.
Marshall Herskovitz:
And over the years I became partnered with Edwards Wick, who I met at the American Film Institute. And we've done a lot of TV shows, 30 something, my so-called life. A lot of movies, Legends of the Fall, and Last Samurai, and look, we've had a great ride. And the thing I'm most proud of is that, really every single thing we've done, we did because we wanted to. Which is a real gift in this business, because, in general, you will find that opportunities given to you may not be what you want to do, or even what your skills are.
Marshall Herskovitz:
So, I think for us, the greatest part was being able to choose what we did. I'm not sure that's true anymore, to be honest, about the business, but we had a good run and now we're still in it, but things are definitely changing.
Michelle Miller:
Amazing. My first question was really going to be that and this idea of how did you guys get started? What was your first paid role in directing? And I love that you guys included that in your intro, because I think that people coming into the industry, which was part of our polls, obviously there are people here who are interested in entering this industry, maybe becoming directors, and they want to know how, and you guys touched on fellowships, starting with film, how difficult it is.
Michelle Miller:
Do any of you have any advice for directors who want to enter the industry? And how different it could be now from when you were entering? Any advice on that? Just entering industry? Starting? Being paid as a director? As opposed to starting out and figuring it out from scratch? Any advice on that?
Rosemary Rodriguez:
Well, I can just say that there's two things, both related to the Directors Guild of America, the DGA has, if you go to their website, they have every fellowship now, because when I did it, literally, it was Marshall's talking about... It was, this fellowship wasn't listed anywhere. It wasn't online, you couldn't find it out. It was word of mouth. I was very fortunate, but now there's like 20 of them.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
There's HBO, Fox, ABC, NBC, everybody has one now. And also, I had to direct a feature, which now you can just do a short. So, other than going and directing a short and using your phone and doing it and go on the DGA website, there's a list of all those fellowships. And also, the Directors Guild has also a Directors Diversity Initiative that has many programs within to help people, train them, to show up on set, and what the politics are, how do you have a tone meeting, all that stuff.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
So there's a lot of resources out there for people, but there's, of course, a lot of competition.
Marshall Herskovitz:
There are a lot of pathways to become a director and they're all difficult, by the way. You can be a writer, you can be a producer. What's different now, and it's been true for the last 15 or 20-years is that there's equipment out there, a DSLR can make a professional looking film. And you can get your friends and you can make a movie and you can edit it on your computer. That wasn't true when I came into the business.
Marshall Herskovitz:
And I often tell people, "Go out and make a movie. It doesn't matter if it's five minutes, or an hour, or two hours." The key is, I think that, too many people think that directing is about the special effects and the bigness of it, when really, directing is about making moments happen, and figuring out how to shoot a scene, and figuring out how to show the connection between two people.
Marshall Herskovitz:
It doesn't matter if they're in space, or they're in the West, or they're in a drawing room, what I think is studios and producers are looking for are the skills that draw you into a story, and you can do that in your living room. So, that's the advice I tend to give people these days.
Michelle Miller:
Jason?
Jason Ensler:
I had a meeting, I think, this is still universal advice. I had a meeting with Chuck Russell who directed The Mask, and Eraser, and the remake of The Blob with Frank Darabont to be his assistant when I was temping at Fox many years ago. And we ended up having a long conversation about movies and at the end of which he said, "I'm not going to hire you to be my assistant. I want you to go and direct, and direct anything you can get your hands on and wake up in the morning and call yourself a director. And create the mindset where you are a director."
Jason Ensler:
And to Marshall's point, it's about those reductive moments. It's about capturing life, stealing life. Werner Hertzog always said that as filmmakers, we're thieves. We steal moments. We create moments, and then they're only there for a limited amount of time. We set them up and then we steal it. And so, it's about the mindset of calling yourself a director and then going out and grabbing those moments and creating a story out of it.
Michelle Miller:
Beautiful. Thanks guys.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
I add one other thing, which is, because I'm a writer/director, and I also produced my first... because if I went back in time, and I have no regrets, however, but if I went back in time I would definitely say the writer part of me is the part, because Marshall said something really key, which is, "When I mentor people now and they're writer/directors, I tell them to get into writing in television. To go that route, because if you could create, and then you can produce your own show and then you can direct it."
Rosemary Rodriguez:
But as a director, I am never invited in the writer's room. That's a taboo, that's never done it. They don't even want me to visit the writer's room. And so, it doesn't matter that I've written and directed a couple of features, that doesn't matter. So, to go back, I would say, and also it's just more powerful position at this point in the game. So, I would definitely encourage people that are writer/directors to go the writers route.
Michelle Miller:
That's good. And then, make their way into directing. That's great. Thank you. Guys, by the way, everyone here, we're going to leave room for Q&A at the end. So, if you have any questions, feel free to type them in. My next question is segued from what Rosemary just said, is about your directorial voice. What sets you guys apart? And what would you describe as to be your directorial voice? And how did you figure out what that was essentially?
Michelle Miller:
And so, if that becomes, even just the message of what Rosemary said, she's a writer/director, that informs, I think, maybe you're directing, and you're directing style. So, how would you guys categorize or describe your directorial voice? And teach us a little bit about that.
Marshall Herskovitz:
Someone want to go?
Michelle Miller:
And I'm dropping these really deep questions. And thought it's going to take a moment to marinate.
Marshall Herskovitz:
I'll go. Although I don't think it's really easy to define. I personally, I feel that a director's voice is very much influenced by who that director heroes are. Who that director learned from in the grand scheme of things. And I would say that my voice was incredibly heavily influenced by a combination of Richard Lester and Frank Capra.
Marshall Herskovitz:
Which is to say... And probably many people on this don't even know who Richard Lester was, and never saw Richard Lester film. He did A Hard Day's Night, and he did The Three Musketeers that was done in the 1970s with Michael York. And he was just a brilliant, brilliant, funny director. Like Robert Altman, they believed in the chaos of life. In the fullness of scenes, and behavior, and activity.
Marshall Herskovitz:
And if you look at Capra's films, they're very much like that as well. There's so much behavior that people have. There's so much business, there's life going on the screen all the time. And I always found that so incredibly delightful to look at. And I remember, it's funny, I remember when we first saw Star Wars, which we saw the first day it came out in 1976, I remember understanding that Lucas, or seeing that Lucas understood that idea, that as a director, you need to give gifts to the audience.
Marshall Herskovitz:
You need to give them something to delight in. And every 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 seconds in Star Wars, there would be something just to enjoy. A little robot walks by, or a funny line, or this, or that, that showmanship, that sense of entertaining people with reality, with human nature, that combination, is to me at the heart of what I try to do as a director.
Jason Ensler:
That reminds me of a story that Stanley Kubrick told on the Shining, or maybe it was Nicholson. Nicholson told the story that he was trying to be more naturalistic and more real with each performance. And that's how he played Jack Torrance for the first few days of shooting. And Kubrick walked up to him and said, "What are you doing?" And he said, "I'm trying to be real. I'm trying to be naturalist, trying to be honest." And he said, "Well, it's honest, but it's not fucking interesting."
Jason Ensler:
And so, there's something about... And I love what Marshall said that, "You have to be conscious of the audience at times in the back of your head, no matter how real, or honest, or authentic it is, the thing that you're capturing, you have to..." I think it was, I'm sorry, I'm quoting people. I think it was a Hitchcock who said that, "The director is the conductor and the audience is the orchestra."
Jason Ensler:
And so, just the understanding that there is an illusion, there is a manipulation, and that what you want them to feel is part of your language as a filmmaker.
Marshall Herskovitz:
100%.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
I think for me, I was very influenced by movies of the 70s. So, very influenced by, I mean, Robert Altman, at one point got to do research for him, Marshall, and I was like, "I couldn't believe he was going to make a movie about Amos & Andy, and I'd just go research it and then come and sit and talk to him about everything I learned. It was like a dream come true." But him and John Cassavetes, and it's funny when Marshall started talking about heroes, I was like, "Oh, heroes." I thought of my dad.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
And then I went to, we have to... I think that if you're a director/writer, you have to have something to say, and you have to have something to offer that audience. So, unless you have this driving, burning, desire to tell stories, so for me, when you asked the question, Michelle was thinking, "My dad was a bookie."
Rosemary Rodriguez:
And so, for me, I've always been fascinated with right and wrong, and justice and injustice, and how do people present themselves and how do you act in the world, versus when you have personal moments, and characters are alone, and big wide things, and then, very tight, little, extreme closeups, and details, and just the big picture and then that little humanity inside.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
And I think that's informed, because I'm always trying to make sense of, "What did my father do for a living? And how did I find that out? And I'm adopted." All the stuff, it's true. But it's absolutely true what you both saying about, it's about the audience, because self-indulgence, and filmmaking, is horrific and arrogant, and I have no time for it. I really bothers me when I see people and gazillions of dollars thrown at somebody who's ultimately just very self-involved and self-indulgent, that drives me crazy.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
But I think connecting people, and putting them in a room, or through streaming, and letting them feel something about their life. I mean, when I saw Secrets & Lies, Mike Leigh's film, six months later, I was looking for my birth mother. That's the power of movies. And that's what I strive for, is to make those movies. It doesn't mean everybody wants to see those movies, because often those are not the big commercial movies, but the combination of those types of movies, with big commercial movies, and visual effects, I think is happening more and more, and that's really exciting.
Marshall Herskovitz:
I think what Jason said is so true, there's a difference between expressing yourself and communicating. You can express yourself in a vacuum and nobody gives a shit. Communicating is what a director has to do. And that means talking to the audience. And I think, certainly over the years, I've taught myself to look at what I'm doing through the audience's eyes and even on the set and in the editing room.
Marshall Herskovitz:
And, I don't know if anybody saw the film about Hitchcock that came out a few years ago and there's a wonderful moment when the shower scene in psycho is playing in the theater and he's out in the lobby and he's waiting for the laughs, and the screams, and the explosions from the audience, and he knows exactly when they're going to come and how big they are, because he had the audience in his head. And that's really, I think what we're all trying to say is that, "If you're not communicating, then you're not really doing the job."
Michelle Miller:
Oh gosh. It's so good. And I think that it's applicable for different roles in entertainment too, like I was an actor, I really connect to that because there's this idea of acting like, "If you're super self-indulgent and you're feeling it, but no one's seeing it, no one's connecting with you, it doesn't matter if you're feeling it. If that's not emoting, if no one receiving it, then it's almost like, what's the point." And I loved-
Jason Ensler:
Oh, sorry. There's something great about what Rosemary said in terms of how honest she is about her own story and her own themes. And she's aware that that goes into her work, because I do think no matter how versatile you are as a director, no matter how many genres you cross, in order to really find your voice as a filmmaker, you have to understand those central ideas of your own life, because you're going to put them into your movies, whether you're conscious of it or not, better to be conscious of it, we all tell one story, we just tell it over and over and over again. So, it's good to find what that is, and then be okay with it. Lean into it. Don't think you're as versatile as you think you are.
Michelle Miller:
I love the variation. Everyone has answers, specifically, both the influences that we have that contribute to our storytelling style, but also just what happens with our own experiences. And Marshall, I'm going to actually bring this up now, you had a Brandeis questionnaire type thing, for I think the Brandeis magazine at some point and they asked you a question that really stuck with me or the answer anyway did. So, the question was, what was the most important value you learned at Brandeis?
Michelle Miller:
And I don't know if you remember what you said, but I'm going to read it. So, it's authenticity of experience. That's what you said, the answer where you learned, understanding what your inner experience actually is essential to being an artist and Brandeis has encouraged you to be an artist and taught you more profoundly what it means to be an artist. But I really connected that with that answer, which is the authenticity of experience, really lens to your style, to how you direct, to what you might want to direct. Do you remember that answer now? I don't know if it's just one of those things you write.
Marshall Herskovitz:
I do. And I also think key to being a director, if you're going to work with actors, is that you have to help the actor find the authenticity in whatever it is they're playing. And it's funny, a lot of directing is like osmosis. That in some way, your bio rhythms as a director, get communicated to the actor without the actor, even knowing it. I remember I had an amazing experience. We did a film called Traffic with Steven Soderbergh and I was on a panel after it came out, and two of the actors from the movie were on the panel and somebody in the audience said, "Tell me how Soderbergh works with the actors?" And they each said, "He never said a word to me." And the audience burst out laughing. And because the performances in that film were remarkable.
Marshall Herskovitz:
And also, it was actually three different films. The cast never even saw each other. They were literally three different stories. And yet all the performances were incredibly consistent throughout the three different stories. And I realized at that moment, that Soderbergh has a very unique way of directing, which is, he is the director of photography, he is the camera operator, and he holds that camera, which in those days was a very big camera on his shoulder. And he's six feet away from the actors.
Marshall Herskovitz:
And if you know him, Soderbergh is one of those people who's very impassive. You don't really know what he's thinking, he's quiet, he's respectful, but that particular way of presenting himself and being right there in every scene, evoked the same response from every actor, which is they showed up and said, "I can't fuck around. I got to be serious. I got to be right here. And I got to do this right." And they were all grownups in some way, and he never said a word. It was just who he was in their presence. And that was a great lesson for me as a director.
Michelle Miller:
There's so many things that I took from that. So, I'm trying to just digest.
Marshall Herskovitz:
Go for it.
Michelle Miller:
I mean, I guess my next question then, to follow that up would be, what advice do you have in terms of collaboration with so many people on set? When I think of a director, like what Jason said, as a conductor, there's so many moving parts. There's so many things to have to be aware of, both how you're telling the story visually, how you're putting all the moving parts together, so I guess one question would be off of Marshall's comment. Do you have any advice to other people in terms of the collaborators on set?
Michelle Miller:
In terms of the actors? Do you have any advice for actors? I'm biased. But I was going to throw that in there and you just put that in. But just in general, anyone in part of the set, do you have any advice for directors on how to conduct a set? And how to conduct all the moving parts? As well as actors and the people who are being moved around? Any advice to them? It's a multitude of questions if you will, but whatever jumps out.
Jason Ensler:
Those are a lot of questions.
Michelle Miller:
Yeah. I did that.
Jason Ensler:
I mean, I guess I would just say that, you're painting this canvas and everybody's holding the brush with you and the way to ensure some cohesion is to treat everybody like the storytellers that they are. Everybody's there to tell stories. Everybody's there, not just to do a job and make a paycheck, there's the magic in the attraction to this business and to want to tell these stories.
Jason Ensler:
So to be a part of that, I think it's important as a director to encourage everybody's participation. And as a director, I see some directors, who get very threatened by that, but the truth is, if you're the director and you know you're the director, ultimately you're going to make the final decision, no matter what the contributions are. So, it's being confident in that position and then being open enough to receive.
Michelle Miller:
Mm. Anyone else?
Rosemary Rodriguez:
Well, yeah. I think, everyone has a different experience. So, I think there's so much to what you just asked. It's really true.
Michelle Miller:
I really know in retrospect, should have just divided the questions.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
No. It's okay. It's collaboration that at the heart, is definitely, I feel like, "I have ideas," but I'm not a dictator at all. Sometimes I don't even necessarily put my specific ideas out there because I want to hear what somebody has to say, because particularly with actors. I want people to feel comfortable enough to say, and I only have my instinct as a director. That's really all I have. So I have instincts about, "Do we have the same taste? Are we going to have the same meal?"
Rosemary Rodriguez:
Because sometimes, especially in television, they're not people I hired. But for movie they are, but maybe somebody I wanted wasn't there so it's the producers... Somebody, whatever. So, I need to leave room to feel their instinct and get a sense of who they are and then invite them in more and more and more.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
But I also think that, when Jason just said, "You're the director, you have the final say." I mean, whoa, there's a lot of politics at play in this world. And so, I think definitely for me, I mean, I don't show up on set, necessarily as Jason, or Marshall does, because look, I'm a female director, I have my own experience. And so, half the time people still think I'm hair and makeup, or wardrobe when I show up.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
So, it's a different experience having a voice and being heard, and how to express it. And I don't want to be a tyrant, and I don't want to be a dictator, but wanting to remain open, and kind, and loving, while being very firm about what I want, and decisive. The main thing that I think I never get away with, which I hear people get away with all the time is like, "Oh, he never makes a decision." And it's like, "What? That's my job. I have to make a decision," but I don't know how a lot of people get away with not making decisions.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
But anyway, I divert. I think that collaboration is key to creating anything that you want to do. And even if it's just writing a script, you want to get notes from people, you want to hear what they have to say, you want to do a reading with actors, you want to hear all actors respond to the script, and you take in what you think is right, and you don't take in what you don't think, but it'll lead you somewhere, always if you let other artists into your process.
Marshall Herskovitz:
I think that's great by the way, to everything you said. I love acting. I would have happily been an actor. I love working with actors and I realized early on that the analogy was that, "When I'm directing I'm mission control in Houston, and the actor is the astronauts doing a space walk without a tether." And they can't do it without me, but they're the ones risking their lives.
Marshall Herskovitz:
They're the ones who could just go off into the universe and never be heard from again and die that way. And I have such unbelievable respect for the courage it takes to act. And when that's my attitude, that shows up on my skin, and on my face, and how I speak to them, I have no judgment, because I'm just in awe of what they do.
Marshall Herskovitz:
And the funny thing is, when you have no judgment, you can be incredibly honest with people, because they know that they're not going to be shamed for it. And so, it becomes this wonderful partnership where you're helping them to get to the place they have to get to. Sometimes they're scared. Sometimes they don't know how to get there. But I'm there to help them arrive at that destination. And so, it works out well.
Marshall Herskovitz:
And as for everybody else, I think Jason put it really well, the cinematographer smarter than me, the production designer smarter than me, they're all smarter than me. And I am blessed to have these people who were smarter than me, and if I don't like an idea they have, I can say, "I don't like that idea." And they'll have 10 more that are better.
Marshall Herskovitz:
So, I was so frightened the first time I directed and I was so shocked to discover that, if you're a decent person and you treat people with respect, you are so protected on the set by the people who work there. They didn't get to that job unless they had incredible drive themselves in wanting to be great. And all they want is to be great. And all they want is for you to let them be great. So, it ends up being this very happy experience on the set.
Michelle Miller:
Amazing. Guys, I have a bunch of questions that I would personally like to ask, but we have so many in the chat. So, I'm going to just send the mic over to Arnon who's going to ask some of your questions from the audience.
Arnon Shorr:
Thank you, Michelle. I mean, gosh, I'm also, I mean, it's been a long COVID year and however long it's been. So, I hadn't been on a set in a long time. All this is making me very nostalgic and hopeful for more productions in the future. We do have a whole bunch of really good questions. I took a bunch of notes off of this stuff in the chat. I'm going to start with one question from Amy Merrill. This is a very Brandeis question, which I figured is appropriate for a panel like this. Amy wants to know, was there a Brandeis course, or a Brandeis professor, who either inspired, or propelled, or somehow provided that push that got you into film or television?
Rosemary Rodriguez:
Well, I can answer that because it's easy for me. It's really bad I don't remember the professor's name, but it was the only film course that they had, and we actually, we're in the theater and we had to watch a movie two times in a row and it was classic movies like, Battleship Potemkin, Citizen Kane, but literally watch it once with no sound, all the way through, and then watch it with sound.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
And this is back-to-back. It just, my head exploded, I saw lighting, I saw cutting, I saw angles. I saw camera in a way that I had never watched a movie with no sound before, and then watched it with sound. So, I would say that changed the course of my life and made me want to be a director.
Arnon Shorr:
That's awesome.
Jason Ensler:
Mine is a peripherally, influential, which is, what was his name? Jerry Cohen, who had this whole class on how Oswald acted alone and...
Rosemary Rodriguez:
The Sixties?
Jason Ensler:
Yeah. The Sixties.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
I love that class.
Jason Ensler:
Yeah. It was a great class. And I became obsessed, of course, with the Kennedy assassination. And I was taking the class when Oliver Stone's film came out. And I think I saw it eight times in the theater and I started to break it down, editorially in terms of film stock, in terms of emotionally, how it was communicating, how Richardson's lighting was communicating the story and capturing the emotion of the conspiracy. And so, from a granular level, I started to really study how films were made. Thanks to my obsession with the Kennedy assassination.
Marshall Herskovitz:
I had several professors that I really love, too, I think really inspired me. But here's the truth, in those days, back in the early 70s, there was an absolute obsession with old movies among students. And when I was at Brandeis, there were two revival theaters in Cambridge, the Orson Wells and the Brattle Street Theater. And then, on campus one night a week, they showed an old movie.
Marshall Herskovitz:
So, many years later, I realized that although I majored in Old English, and my senior thesis was a screenplay of Beowulf, the truth is my real major Brandeis was old movies. And I didn't even know it at the time. My education was in classical American film from the 20s to the 50s. And I didn't know that I wanted to be a filmmaker, I just knew that I loved those films. It wasn't until, really my senior year when I started to think about, "Oh my God, I'm going to get out of here. And what the hell am I going to do?"
Marshall Herskovitz:
I started thinking about, "Oh, maybe make movies." But I think it was just being exposed to this world, all of these people were creating an art form in the 20s, 30s, and 40s. They were discovering it as they went. And it was just a remarkable thing to be embedded in it in that way.
Arnon Shorr:
They were still showing old movies once a week when I was there, but it was usually in conjunction with one of the film classes. So, I imagine it's probably still happening to some degree or another. We do have another question from Randy Sumner. This is fast forwarding a bit from your Brandeis years to now, as you look back on the work that you've done, is there anything that you made that you wish you could remake now that you have more experience, or know a few more things than you did back then? Everybody's chuckling, but nobody has an answer.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
For me, I would say, "No." I mean, I'm happy with everything I've done and I wouldn't change it. I don't mean that to sound arrogant. I just think that everything happens in the moment the way it's supposed to, and I am proud and grateful for the opportunity to have done it. I wouldn't change it.
Marshall Herskovitz:
Also, I think when you make a film, it takes up about two years of your life and you live in it so deeply, but at the time you finished that film, you're so aware of everything you did wrong, everything you would do differently, and then, you have to talk to people who see the film who tell you their critique of it, and you're going, "Oh my God, I knew that 18 months ago, you have to remind me of that?"
Marshall Herskovitz:
And basically, I personally, I'm so done with the films I've made by the time I'm finished with them, that it would be hard for me to go back. That being said, we actually attempted to reboot the series Thirtysomething this past year. It wasn't going to be a remake, it was going to actually pick up 30-years later, which is what it is, more with the kids of the characters in the show. That the original character would be there, but it would focus more on the people in their 30s now, but we were victims of COVID, and ABC's thinking at the time.
Marshall Herskovitz:
So, that was a great disappointment for us, but I was really looking forward to going back and revisiting that territory.
Michelle Miller:
Just a quick question on that, because I was curious about that, Marshall. There were some reports that maybe that could be shopped around to different places, is there any talk of that now?
Marshall Herskovitz:
There's been talk of it. And I would say they're still a possibility, but I think the way the business works right now, they don't generally do that the way they used to. It's still happens occasionally, but I wouldn't bet money on it happening anywhere else.
Michelle Miller:
Got it.
Arnon Shorr:
Jason, do you have an answer or are you-
Michelle Miller:
I agree with Marshall and Rosemary which is, I'm exhausted by the time it's finished and I never want to see it again. So, yeah. I mean, I do know the mistakes that I made and I still regret them. So, I mean, sometimes I think on, "What if I had done this?" But I don't want to go back and do it.
Arnon Shorr:
I'm with you. I understood. I understood. We've got a question from Jonathan Levy, and this is a new to town question. Any advice to somebody who's just landed in town, in Hollywood, who's just starting out? How to break in?
Marshall Herskovitz:
Runaway. I have advice. Well, by the way, first, what do you want to do? It's really dependent upon what you want to do in the business. And it's also okay not to know. But I'm not sure...
Arnon Shorr:
So, Jonathan, in the comment say he wants to write/direct as full-time as possible.
Marshall Herskovitz:
Okay. All right. Well I've two things to say, and then I'll defer to the others. First of all, if you want to write... Now, I'm going to give you a little parable here, which is to say that, in Hollywood, there are thousands of undiscovered great actors, because they haven't had a chance to have that part that shows who they are. And there are hundreds of undiscovered great directors, because it's so hard to get hired as a director and they haven't had a chance to show what they would do.
Marshall Herskovitz:
And there are zero undiscovered great writers in Hollywood, because anybody can write and you can find somebody to read your work. And there's a remarkable thing that happens in this town. If you have talent as a writer. And by the way, when I say talent, I'm being very specific about the talent necessary to write for television or movies.
Marshall Herskovitz:
It doesn't mean you're not a talented writer if you don't have that talent, it's just means, "Are you suited to do this thing?" If you are suited to do this thing, people go crazy over it. And I usually tell people if they want to be a writer, be prepared to write three scripts on spec. And if by the third script, you don't feel this unbelievable energy coming back toward you from people who you get to read it like, "Oh my God, this is amazing. Oh my God, this has to get made. Or I'm going to call this person."
Marshall Herskovitz:
Then you should probably find something else to do, because that's the level of reaction you need from people if you're going to get somewhere. So, writing is in fact, the simplest path to success but a very difficult one, but it's real simple. Just write.
Arnon Shorr:
What about the directing side? Of the write/direct?
Marshall Herskovitz:
I'll let the others answer that.
Jason Ensler:
I would just say, "Stay focused and don't miss opportunities." Meaning when you come to Los Angeles, it's very easy to get distracted by Los Angeles, and you don't want to end up in a Raymond Chandler novel, you want to write one. Or Bret Easton Ellis. You could easily fall down a rabbit hole in Los Angeles and lose your anchor. It's an apocalyptic place if you're not careful. So, stay focused on the work at hand.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
I mean, me, I don't know. I feel we answered it already. I feel there's just so many opportunities to write and direct shorts and to get people together and just everything that you shoot, you will learn something. And then, me, I'm a worker, so I needed to earn money for living. So, I did everything from catering, to cleaning apartments, I worked in hair salon, I'm just a grunt worker. And so, I just worked so that I can do whatever.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
And I have directed television for a long time so I literally take that money and fund my own movie, because I don't have an easy access to financing still to this day, so, my third feature is finally a feature that I'm not paying for, which has taken me almost 20-years to get there.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
And that's what I would say, a pretty prolific amount of television and all episodes that I'm very proud of, still it's that difficult. So, when I speak to someone and people in general, on these types of panels, I say similar to what Marshall is saying, which is, if there is anything in the world that you can see yourself doing with your life, and I mean anything, whether it's a shack, an architect, whatever, you should really go do that, because this is brutal, and I'm not trying to scare anybody away. You just have to have that fortitude and perseverance.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
And no matter what happens, no matter how you're working, no mutter how much it takes a shit ton of perseverance and tenacity, and really you can be the best writer in the planet if you don't have tenacity, nothing's going to happen with your material. And that's the quality, I think Jason spoke to that a little bit with finding your voice and having confidence, and I think that's what you have to affirm for yourself and really hustle.
Rosemary Rodriguez:
But again, you got to hustle, but you have to connect with people in an authentic way and not be desperate and needy. And so, just go create. You call yourself a director when you've got a few shorts that you can show somebody. Just a couple of minutes. Nobody has more than two or three minutes either, to watch anything. So, keep it short, keep it funny, keep it entertaining and just do it and earn money however you can.
Jason Ensler:
I'd also say to your point, "Trust that, if you're an artist you are, by nature, resilient. And in that resilience, every time you get knocked down, you will find more vulnerability in your work and you'll also be stronger to survive the next time you get knocked down." So, I mean, I think that's the nature of being an artist. And if you can't handle it like that, then, like she said, maybe there's something else for you.
Marshall Herskovitz:
I have one more thing to add to this which I find to be just as true today as when I first came out here, which is that, everything is based on relationships here. You have to be able to create relationships with people in power, because they hire the people they know. And one of the ways to create that relationship, it may sound odd, is to become an assistant to somebody, but you have to choose the right person to become an assistant to.
Marshall Herskovitz:
And what that generally means is, a producer who actually gets things made, that can be an actor, that can be a director, or it can be a production company, but what happens in these companies, they get very busy and if someone loves their assistant, their assistant moves up. I mean, in my company, every single assistant I've ever had has become a producer or... Actually everyone has become a producer.
Marshall Herskovitz:
And some of them became writers, and then you can be a producer and then become a director. The point is, you need a way into the business, and the way into the business is relationships. And one way to create relationships is to go work at a company and be willing to just make the telephone calls, and do the work of being an assistant, knowing that you are becoming utterly important to the person you're working for and they're seeing you as being more valuable than just an assistant.
Michelle Miller:
I'm going to add to this, because this is, I think Arnon and I, we have this vision in total of what arts alumni is, what Showbiz@Deis is, and it's this idea of creating a community where people in this industry can learn from each other, like this panel, but also rely on each other. And so, I would encourage people to not just think of these panels as a way of learning from these amazing panelists, and using the alumni that way, but also working with each other.
Michelle Miller:
Meeting people who are attending these panels and connecting with them that way, because those can be your future collaborators as well. And reaching out to alum to potentially ask for a PA position, or a day on set, or just ask for coffee. And it doesn't, like I said, have to be these particular panelists, or any of our panelists, but also people who are our alum who we haven't reached out to yet, or people who are just attending these calls and you can connect with them that way.
Michelle Miller:
So, definitely rely on each other in creating this community as well.
Arnon Shorr:
We do have specifically, for the entertainment world, we have Brandeis alumni in film and television which is a very active Facebook group. When I got out to LA, and Marshall, I want to thank you for creating this segue to really what we wanted to wrap up on, when I got out to LA about 10-years ago, the Brandeis alumni network in the industry didn't really exist.
Arnon Shorr:
There were people who knew each other a little bit, but you really had to dig in order to find them. Right now we've got an active Facebook group. I don't remember what the numbers are. We must be close to 200 members on the group. People share their successes the little victories that matter, we get to cheer each other along, people hire and cast-
Michelle Miller:
Offer opportunities.
Arnon Shorr:
On that group. And I would say, to me the important thing is, it's not just for folks who are starting out. If you are further along in the industry and you have opportunities, don't forget Brandeis when it comes to share those opportunities, and give the rest of us a bit of a chance to hop on board your success train.
Arnon Shorr:
Gee, that was corny. But yeah. I'm speaking off the cuff and from the heart here. The alumni network can be really strong and can be really incredible. We've got some really, really successful alumni who are doing incredible work. But it's going to take all of us working together to forge those connections and to keep that network strong.
Arnon Shorr:
And Michelle and I are working on creating a foundation for that, but in order for that to really work, it's all the rest of you participating, and getting involved, and being part of it. So, with that, I want to thank Marshall and Rosemary and Jason, very, very much for participating in this panel and really elevating the network in doing what you're doing.
Arnon Shorr:
Like I said at the beginning, put pins in your calendars for Thursday, July 27th-
Michelle Miller:
Tuesday, July 27th.
Arnon Shorr:
Tuesday, thank you. Tuesday, July-
Michelle Miller:
I got you. 4:00 PM Pacific, 7:00 PM Eastern. We're going to have another panel such as this. If you guys have any suggestions for future panels that you would want to have, we're thinking of, at one point, doing a pitching panel where people can pitch ideas to whomever and we can practice pitching. But if anyone has any other ideas as to what we can do, we're so open to that.
Michelle Miller:
We're doing them every month, this year. That's our goal. We already have the dates. So, they're in the calendar, they have to happen.
Arnon Shorr:
And Brandeis alumni in the industry that somehow we haven't sniffed out, definitely let us know. We'd love to get the network to be as comprehensive as possible. And-
Michelle Miller:
Join the Facebook groups, there in the chat, highly recommend seeing Jason, Searching for Alison Porchkin, which is just another example of leading Brandeis. And he was able to... The first year out, he was able to put together this amazing film, short film, with all these incredible alumni. So, it's a really great directory for who went to Brandeis and who's in the industry. So, I recommend it.
Arnon Shorr:
And that's it from us.
Marshall Herskovitz:
Thank you.
Michelle Miller:
Excellent. We also have... I think we might've mentioned it a series of the previous panels available on the Brandeis website. So, if you guys want to see any of the ones we used to do, we've done a theater one, we've done a TV film executives, one we've done a TV writers, one graphic novels and illustrators. Please feel free to find that on the Brandeis website.
Michelle Miller:
Thank you guys so much for attending this. Thank you to our panelists again, Marshall, Rosemary, Jason, thank you Arnon, of course, and thank you, Courtney. She's up there in the Ether, in the Brandeis Ether, and Arts Alumni Council. We appreciate you and we will see you next month.