Michelle Miller:
Welcome. My name is Michelle Miller. I'm the Performing Arts Network Chair for Arts Alumni. I'm also a TV film actress based in New York. This is, like I said, the third installment, which is a series of panels discussions we have with alumni in various and specific fields in entertainment. So if you have any sort of desire to have a panel or have a particular topic you want us to go over this year, let us know, because like I said, we're doing this every month. So we want to hear from you guys. This series is produced specifically with Arnon Shorr, who's going to be moderating today. He's a filmmaker, a screenwriter, graphic novelist, fellow Brandeisian, you'll meet him in a minute. I also like to say I host a podcast called Mentors on the Mic, where I interview amazing mentors in entertainment about how they started and how they moved up. And two of our panelists are actually previous mentors on the podcast. So if you ever have any interest, I'll probably at some point link them, but David Gray and Matt Witten have been mentors on the podcast.
Michelle Miller:
So today's event in this series is being put together by the Brandeis Arts Network, which is a group exclusive to Brandeis undergraduates and graduate alumni that enable everyone involved in the arts, both professionals and enthusiasts alike, to engage, share and experience the vast array of artistic endeavors of fellow Brandeisians on campus, across the country and abroad. The Brandeis Arts Network also encompasses and supports the efforts of the Performing Arts Network and the Brandeis Alumni in Film and Television. You can find these links, the Brandeis Arts Network, the Performing Arts Network, and Brandeis Alumni in Film and Television on Facebook. You do not have to memorize everything I just said, hopefully it's coming up in the chat right now. You can have the link to the Facebook group, so you can get updates for further things in the future and network with other alum. Great.
Michelle Miller:
And then our next panel, just to let you guys know is April 27th, which is going to be an Oscars Awards postmortem with Scott Feinberg of the Hollywood reporter and Brandeis' very own film history guru, Professor Thomas Doherty. So do not miss that April 27th, same time, same place. Great. So I wanted to go over a couple quick polling questions. We like to have an idea of who's out there right now. So our first polling question is going to be, who are you? Are you a Brandeis current student? Are you a graduate? Are you faculty and staff, are you family and friends? We just kind of want to have an idea of who's coming to this. Who are we talking to right now? And then our next poll, which we wanted to do at the same time is why are you here? Are you interested in writing? Are you interested in just entertainment in general? Like me, I'm not a writer as much as I am in entertainment, or you're just not... Okay, great. So mostly Brandeis graduates and just barely I'm interested in writing for the screen. That's excellent. It's good for us to know. Thank you guys for doing that. And so without further ado, I'm going to pass this along to Arnon Shorr. Arnon, take it away.
Arnon Shorr:
Thank you Michelle. Hi everybody. So before we begin, as we talk, if you have questions for the panelists, drop them in the chat. Michelle is sticking around, she's monitoring the chat. She is going to be curating those questions for a Q&A at the end of the panel. So as questions come up, feel free to drop them in the chat and we'll try to get to them. So it's really an honor for me to moderate this panel with Mark Altman, David Grae, Marta Kauffman, and Matt Witten, all Brandeis alumni, all exceptional writers in television. They also do other things which we'll get to a little bit. So let's see Matt and Mark, Marta and David. David, you're the only non M name. I'm sorry about that. We couldn't get that kind of worked out, but why don't you all start with like a one minute intro? Tell us a little bit about yourselves, what you do. Go ahead. Whoever wants to dive in first.
Marta Kauffman:
Oh my God. I can't believe all these Jews are so shy.
David Grae:
It's deference. Marta.
Marta Kauffman:
I'll jump in. So I guess I work backwards. I am currently, we are about to finish our seventh season of Grace and Frankie, which I co-created and am showrunner for and have directed a bunch of. Previous to that, I've done several documentaries, Seeing Allred about Gloria Allred, and Blessed is the Match which was about Hannah Senesh, and a little film called Hava Nagila The Movie, which was about basically tracing it from when it was a nigun to when it became something that people would ice skate to. And before that I did Friends, I co-created and showran Friends, I have three amazing children and was a theater major at Brandeis. And I always say that Brandeis is where I learned to be a human being. So that's my spiel.
Arnon Shorr:
Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. David, do you want to go next?
David Grae:
Sure, sure. So I'll go the other direction, just to shake things up, than Marta did. I think the most important thing I did vis-a-vis this panel was I was the co-founder at Brandeis of False Advertising, the first improv group at Brandeis, and I learned about five years ago that it still existed. And, in fact, it still exists to this day and, and they actually have statues of the founders. It's like a Mount Rushmore of improv at Brandeis, so it's fantastic. But no, but I did do that and that was great. And it's funny, I was almost a theater major at Brandeis. I was an English major and I came one class shy of being an English major. Marta, I don't know if he was still teaching, if he was there when you were but I bet he was, Jim Clay.
Marta Kauffman:
Oh my god, Jim Clay.
David Grae:
He's a great guy and he taught Arts and Crafts of Theater, and I didn't want to take that class, but I had to take it to get the double major. So I was not a theater major. So when I look back at my time at Brandeis, all I did was theater, directing, acting, and I wasn't quite writing yet at Brandeis, but it really got me... It was the beginning of my career as a writer, even though I only took one playwriting class like my sophomore or senior year, I can't quite remember, but doing theater there and acting and directing and producing theater was a great adventure.
Marta Kauffman:
I don't mean to interrupt you, but I just want to say that Jim clay is who taught me about the Architecture of a Scene.
David Grae:
Wow, I should have taken the class. Maybe I'd be as successful as you, but that's great to hear. He was a great guy. He was a great guy. And then, randomly, because I didn't want to wait tables when I got out of school, I started a school for creative writing in New York called Gotham Writers Workshop that's still going strong today. I did some theater, I wrote a play called Moose Mating that's been published for Dramatist's Play Service, and it's had some productions regionally and some around the world. And in terms of my TV writing career, I got started pretty late. I've only been doing it for about 17 years, and I've written on Joan of Arcadia and Gilmore Girls and Without a Trace. I was on Castle for several years, for six seasons, and then most recently on Madam Secretary as an EP and sort of co-showrunner, even though I was the number two to Barbara Hall, the genius Barbara Hall, who created that show, and I'm currently developing, working on a pilot for Netflix. So that's my spiel.
Arnon Shorr:
Awesome. Thank you, David. Matt, how about you?
Matt Witten:
Sure. Yeah, I got an MFA in playwriting from Brandeis where I actually ran the projector for a show of Marta's called Personals. And so I came out of Brandeis and I started writing plays and I wrote several plays that were done in New York and around the world, The Deal, Sacred Journey, Washington Square Moves, Ties that Bind. And then at a certain point, I kind of realized that my favorite thing to do in the world was to put my feet up and read a mystery. So I decided to start writing mystery novels. And so I wrote four mystery novels that were published by Signet, they were humorous amateur sleuth novels. And somewhere in there by some odd quirk, I got the call to come out to L.A. And start writing for TV. So I wrote for Homicide and then Law and Order and House and Pretty Little Liars and several other dramas, mostly crime dramas.
Matt Witten:
And then somewhere in there I wrote the movie Drones. And then a couple of years ago, I had another of those realizations where I realized that my favorite thing to do at this point in my life was to sit and put my feet up, have a cup of tea and read thrillers, thriller novels. So I started writing thriller novels and my first one is going to be published this September. And this is my, what do you call it? My visual aid. It's called Necklace. I'm very excited about it. It's coming out this September. So that's my story.
Arnon Shorr:
Thank you, Matt Mark. Last but not least.
Mark Altman:
The president of the Thomas Doherty fan club. But when I'm not doing that, I've been a showrunner for TV, currently on the CW show Pandora. I got my start, unlike these fine people, I had nothing to do with the theater department. I was the editor of The Justice,. And that was an amazing opportunity. I'll tell you how not to break into the entertainment business. I interviewed Gary David Goldberg, who some of you younger people may not know who he is. He was one of the legends of television comedy. He did Family Ties, he did a short little show called the Bronx Zoo that I loved. He then did Spin City, he's on the Mount Rushmore of TV comedy show runners. And I interviewed him, great interview, fantastic. He was at Brandeis alumnus. He was one of those people like Abby Hoffman used to always talk about, you know, when you talk about the great Brandeis alums, you know, you say, "Oh, Gary David Goldberg".
Mark Altman:
So I remember getting a letter back from him that said, on Ubu stationary, that was the dog at the end of his shows. And it said, I love the interview. I papered the house with them, call me when you graduate if you need a job. So I thought, Oh my God, this is great. I got a job when I graduate. I'm set. This is fantastic. Remember I was young and naive at the time. And so, when I graduated, I called up Gary David Goldberg's office. I'm like, "Hey, I want to come work for you." And he said, "Oh, well, come out to visit." You know? And so I planned this whole trip to go out to California and I was going to sit down with Gary and I had my whole life planned out here. And for whatever reason, I just could not get this on the schedule. And finally, I heard from his assistant, I was like, "What's going on? You know, Gary, he's promised me this job." I was wondering what's going on? And she says, "Yeah, you know, he means it when he says it, but he says that to a lot of people." And I'm like, "Oh, man." Now the irony of this is I ended up selling his company a feature many years later. So I felt like I got something for my effort, but that was my first experience with the reality of TV.
Mark Altman:
But of course I have nothing but incredible affinity for Brandeis. One of my absolute favorite experiences of all time was junior year, I went to the dinner for all the commencement speakers and it was like a sluggers row. It was Spielberg, and he was there with Lew Wasserman and Amy Irving and Sid Sheinberg, who I ended up writing a script for, which was the stupidest idea ever, I just wanted to hear Sid Sheinberg stories so I ended up taking the gig. Bart Giamatti was there, Benny Goodman. I mean, it was incredible. It was this incredible night. I will never forget it. And I think I was the one person who was more excited to meet Lew Wasserman than to meet Spielberg, as exciting as that was. But I have to say, my entertainment journalism experience at Brandeis paved the way for me to be an entertainment journalist for many years, at which point I sold my first movie, which was a project I made, well now it's about 20 years ago, called Free Enterprise with Eric McCormack and Bill Shatner, who was not 90 years old at the time, he was much younger. And it was a comedy about two star Trek fans who meet their idol, William Shatner, and find out he's more fucked up than they are. And it was a really fun romantic comedy, and it played theatrically for a while and got great, great reviews.
Mark Altman:
And that sort of led into producing a bunch of independent films and then working in TV, everything from Necessary Roughness, David and I worked briefly on Castle, ton of other shows, and it's just been an incredible road. And then I also write nonfiction books, oral histories of significant shows. I've done oral histories for St. Martins of the James Bond films, Nobody Does it Better. A book on the oral history of Star Wars is coming out later this year, and I've done a series of these and it's always a great opportunity because it's a chance to pick other people's brains and to learn from them, because you never stop learning no matter how successful you get at your own chosen field. There's always so much to learn from other people. That's why something like this is great. It's like as much as we're here to talk, we're here to listen to what everybody else has to say. It's always great doing these panels, particularly when it's for your Alma Mater. Because I was saying to them before that I've done Williams, I've done NYU, I've done a bunch of other people's schools, but Brandeis never asked. So I'm very happy to be doing a Brandeis event.
Arnon Shorr:
Well, I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. Thank you everybody. So some of you kind of started to answer the next question that I have. It's a fairly common question in these kinds of panels, but I'd like to give it a little bit of a twist to make it a little fresh. I'd like you to tell us a little bit, if you haven't already, how you got your start in TV, and the twist is, do you think that the way that you got in, the way you kicked down the door, is still possible for somebody starting out now?
Matt Witten:
I mean, I don't really know if the way that I got in is still possible. The way that I got in is from people seeing one of my stage plays, or two of my stage plays, and that's how I got a manager and an agent, it's how I got my first job at Homicide and my second job at Law and Order. And so for me, I didn't write a spec script or anything like that, but you know, that's not a route that I would advise the people that want to become TV writers. I mean, people that want TV writers, I very much recommend that they write a spec pilot and then write another spec pilot because the first one might not be so good. The second one will be better. I'd also recommend to people that they, if possible, get a job as a production assistant or a writing assistant so that they can meet people.
Matt Witten:
And I'd also recommend that when they have a spec script they're happy with, the spec pilot, to enter reputable contests with it, and also just do everything they can to knock down the door of an agent or a manager. That's the main thing that I would recommend to people. I know people sometimes will shoot a short film that they've done or shoot a portion of a pilot that they've written, and that's also, I think, a good calling card. So those are the things that I would recommend. I got into it just from being a playwright, but I think that's kind of a long way around and not something that is that easy to duplicate?
Mark Altman:
Yeah. I got to actually disagree with Matt for a second because a lot of development execs right now, and studios are looking for playwrights. You hear it a lot. So, you know, not that you necessarily would go into playwriting as an entree to TV, you should go into playwright because you're passionate about it. You have stories to tell and that's what you love, which is true of anything, but particularly in the arts. But quite the contrary, I find that to be a very valid entry. I know a good friend of mine, who's a showrunner on something you just said, she wanted to hire some people she'd worked with before. And they say, we really want you to hire playwrights. I mean, literally this is what they were saying. And it's something you hear a lot more of, the business has changed dramatically, and I'm sure everyone else is going to talk about this, in the last couple of years dramatically.
Mark Altman:
And so I don't think any one person's break-in story is necessarily the way. There's no guide. There's so many different ways. And it has been a relationship business for such a long time, but with aggregation, with metrics, and particularly with the streamers, it's interesting how sort of the traditional relationships are sort of getting turned on their head, and so many other factors are entering the picture. But at the end of the day, it's still about can you write, can you deliver the goods, do people want to work with you?
David Grae:
I would also, oh, go ahead Marta. Go ahead Marta.
Marta Kauffman:
I was just going to say, I think two things can be true. I think on the one hand, yes, what you are suggesting about what Matt is suggesting about, there are ways in which you start as a PA and you work your way up. I know that we have promoted a number of people who started as interns. On the other hand, there's another way in, if you have a unique enough voice I think you can make your way in with that. You may not be able to showrun your own show, but I think there are ways. We were musical theater people, wrote a musical, and this was with David Crane, who also went to Brandeis, and an agent came one night and said, "Why aren't you guys writing television?" And we said, "I don't know." She is our agent to this day. That was 1985.
Marta Kauffman:
So when we came out here and we met with all the agents and about what are you going to do and how are you going to get there? And they all said, "You got to get a job on somebody else's show." I had a baby. I was like, you know what? I don't want to do it that way. And David and I decided we were going to find a way to do where we created our own stuff. And thanks to her who said, "All right, let's give this a shot", we were able to have an entree into our careers that weren't simply work your way up through the ranks. And therefore, I think both things can be true and to this day are true. I read young writers all the time, and playwrights, and all kinds of writers. The trick is, do these people know characters? Do they know conflict? Do they know how to have a beginning, a middle and an end to a story? It doesn't matter if it's a play, or if it's a movie, or if it's a book, or if it's an article, all of those things apply when you're looking for writers. That's it.
David Grae:
Yeah. And I have kind of the theory of everything that I think is going to pull it all together, which is I wanted to be a television writer and I had written specs, and back like 20 years ago, when I was trying to break in, it was spec scripts. It wasn't pilots. And I wrote specs of my two favorite shows, West Wing and The Sopranos, and a little twist was I wrote, it was only like season three or four of the Sopranos, but I wrote the series finale, and did a catch up at the beginning, a previously on, to get you where I needed to be for the series finale. But when I moved to L.A. 20 years ago, as sort of throwing a cocktail party to meet people, the relationship part, I produced and directed my own play.
David Grae:
And one day the lead actor, the guy who was playing the main part in the play, said to me, "You know, my wife is...", He said like a weird thing. Like, "My wife is sniffing around you" or something, but he meant she was helping him with his lines, and it turned out this was Jerry Levine and his wife, his Nina Tassler, was and is, who went on to become the president, the chairman of CBS. But at the time was the most powerful hour drama executive in the business and who I know to this day. And she's fantastic. And she said to me, sort of what Marta, someone said "Why don't you have an agent?", because I didn't have an agent at the time. And it's exactly why I put on the play, and she hooked me up with a big time agent and a manager and then you could trace the path to my first job. When it was frustrating because it took a few years for me to get my first job, I said to my agent, "Should I try to get a writer's assistant job or something like that?" And he said, "No, you're a writer. We're going to sell you as a writer. Those jobs go to people's cousins and friends, and it will be harder to get you that job than to get your first staff job."
David Grae:
And when I got hired on Joan of Arcadia by Barbara Hall for my first job, she was looking for a playwright because she had a lot of success with this terrific writer who I worked with recently, also on Madam Secretary, Joy Gregory. She said to the executive at CBS, "Give me someone who's a playwright, who writes with a rhythm and is funny." And he thought of me. I think literally I was the only... She just wanted someone pre-approved by the network. But I had my specs ready. But she just wanted to read my play, it turns out. So, there's a lot of ways to skin a cat.
Marta Kauffman:
It sounds like a lot of those ways are still potentially possible. I mean, if people are still looking for playwrights if theater is still one of the possible minds for new talent. Which leads me to the next question that I have for all of you who've been part of this system and part of this industry in one form or another. I think David, you said you were probably newest to the industry of the four of you and you've been in it for almost two decades. It has changed a lot. I think that's an understatement. And I'm wondering as creative people who are trying to tell stories within a system, how have the changes in television? I mean, David, when you started, you wrote a spec for Sopranos, which was at the time revolutionary as far as what was going on cable. And since then Marta with Grace and Frankie as a Netflix show, the whole model has changed and changed again and changed again. How have those changes changed what or how you write? If they have.
David Grae:
Marta, you want to...
Marta Kauffman:
Because it keeps changing, it's hard to really answer that question. I mean, when we first were doing Grace and Frankie on Netflix, there was this thing about. You go from here's the first script you're going to write to 13 episodes, which was insane. I mean, you didn't get to do a pilot. You didn't get to make mistakes. You had to learn along the way and it turned out to be thrilling and fantastic and a new creative endeavor that was exciting and challenging. But things are changing again and now it's not so much going from the pilot to 13 episodes as it is going from here's the pilot, let's now see proof of series. And it's in a weird way, at as much as there are a million places that you can do a TV show, they're making you jump through more hoops than they did six years ago.
Arnon Shorr:
How does that compare to something like Friends where it's broadcast and a whole different animal.
Marta Kauffman:
That's a whole different thing. I mean, with Friends, you knew going into it, here's the process. You're going to write a pilot, they'll pick it up or they won't. They pick it up, you cast the pilot, you shoot the pilot, they either pick it up or they won't. And then you do some episodes and they either do more episodes or they don't. But there was a very clear path along the way. Right now I'm confused. We're very, very fortunate to have a seventh season on Grace and Frankie, which will be Netflix's longest running show. I'm going to pat myself on the back for that for a minute. And now they're only doing three seasons of things. So, you have to change your approach to the story so that you can tell your full story in three years, in three seasons. And that may only be 10 episodes of season. Which by the way, sucks for the writers.
David Grae:
Yeah. I tell you, I'm experiencing change. I went from just doing network shows, which I think is I think there's a lot of... There's a bit of snobbery about, "Oh, cable and streaming versus network." Try writing 22 to 24 or more. Maybe Friends, you got half hours, you guys are doing 30 or 28. That's the bad-ass thing to do is every eight days, have a new script, and then just do it for 10 months or 11 months or practically all year round.
David Grae:
But now I sold a project to Netflix and each season, they told me it's eight episodes, Marta, per season. And basically the deal is three seasons. But before they decide to shoot anything, I have to not only write the pilot, but I have to basically write an outline of the entire first season. You have to break every episode. They call it story documents. A page for episode, but it ends up being two or three pages because if you're going to do a page, it's easier to do two or three. You have to work out the whole thing and the arc of all the characters in the whole thing.
Marta Kauffman:
I would say it's bullshit. It's bullshit, because the minute you start doing it, it changes.
David Grae:
Yeah, exactly. But it's got to be good because I want to get this on the air. I've never gotten my own original show on the air. So I'm taking the shot. And again, we're so fortunate to do what we do and I've been incredibly fortunate. If I never worked another day, the business doesn't owe me anything. But I've never worked so hard on something. Because they're paying me like I'm getting paid for a pilot, but really it's so much more. And so that is the business changing. But on the upside, I'll say that it was interesting working out the whole season. And I do look forward to being able to do it. Because when you work out the whole thing, it does inform earlier episodes. So yeah, it's changing. I like the network model too, which still does exist and I certainly might be going back to, as I have to pay for my kids in college and everything.
Mark Altman:
I mean, there's this seismic shift going on in the business. It was 26, then it became 13. 10 was the new 13. Now eight's the new 10. And it doesn't mean that people are being paid. People see all this money and they think, "Oh my God, there's all that money." But then you're working for two years doing what David's talking about, developing all this stuff. And then they want more and more and more because a lot of people think, "Oh, we're finally getting rid of the pilots. Isn't that great?" But then they want so much in lieu of a pilot to go straight to series.
Mark Altman:
And the show that I'm doing now is a different model. It's an acquired acquisition, which is, basically we sold this straight to series, but then the network pays X for a license fee. And then we had to bring in our deficit financing and a bunch of international sales. There's so many different models and that doesn't even get into the fact that everything has to be an IP. Because as these companies start to build, Paramount Plus, and HBO Max, and Disney Plus, the thing that's going to attract people and get them to spend on streaming is the IP. So, you start to see Star Wars, and Marvel, and now the Disney Land itself is becoming its own shared universe. Ron Moore is developing it, so it'll probably be good. And then the stuff that HBO Max is developing. But there's less and less of an appetite for original content. That's just the same as it is in features.
Matt Witten:
I guess what I really appreciate about TV now as a writer is just that shows are better than they used to be. TV shows are better than they were five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago. So I'm pitching a show now that I wouldn't have been able to pitch five or 10, 15, 20 years ago. Whatever, it's better. I'm into crime shows and it used to be the homicide of the week. That was okay, it's good, but it's more fun when you have a really cool murder that goes on for the whole season or for three seasons. I'd rather watch a Broadchurch than Law and Order. So, I just really appreciate the opportunities that we all have now to write really cool stuff that we didn't have years ago.
Arnon Shorr:
What do you think it is about the changes in the industry that have allowed for this evolution in the content itself?
Matt Witten:
I think Netflix. It used to be that reruns would just be one-offs on cable networks. But now people binge watch. They watch the whole thing on Netflix. So, I think that leads to much more serialized dramas than there used to be. And I think in general, for me, more fun dramas. More complex, more interesting dramas.
Mark Altman:
And that's the whole reason that businesses evolved from procedural to serialized. Because it used to be, you assumed, and it's true, people couldn't program their VCRs. Then they got TiVo, then they got streaming. So, all of a sudden you wouldn't have to miss an episode. You couldn't do serialize because maybe I'm going out to dinner that night and I missed the episode and there's no way to see it. But now that every episode is available on demand, serialized over the last couple of years, it's become what it's at. Except, internationally where there's still a real appetite. But then we were talking, before we went on the air or whatever this is, about Unorthodox. But at the same time, what's the most popular show on television, still? NCIS. So, our tastes and our interest in subjects. I love Call My Agent! which I think is phenomenal. It's very different from, from what the quote, unquote, masses are consuming. And yet it'd be very hard to get an NCIS on the air now because it's not sexy.
Marta Kauffman:
On the other hand, we just did a pilot script for ABC. And the response was, "We're only doing procedurals." Because on streaming, binging works, but on networks, it doesn't.
David Grae:
People are too frustrated, probably, having to wait a week when they could just go on a streamer and watch whatever they want.To me, it's additive, what's happened. The network bottle is still there and the procedurals and all these other models and deficit financing, Mark, and Netflix, it's all out there. I mean, look, I'm a grownup. I chose to do this project on Netflix that's kicking my and putting me through hoops. I could've just stuck with network. In fact, I poo-pooed network jobs that I had an opportunity to be a part of streaming shows. Obviously, that's where the money is. But coming off of my last job, I just didn't feel like doing that. But it's a choice. I think you could get into any side of the business. People that are in could get in any side they want.
David Grae:
But if you're breaking in and I don't know how much of this conversation is about that. You could also choose where you want to go. I think there's more of a chance. What Marta did is incredible saying 30 years ago, whenever it was, "I think I'm just going to create my own stuff." I mean, that's one in a million. One of very few people were able to achieve that. And I love Dream On and obviously Friends. But now I think the pendulum has swung around where there's more of an opportunity with a network model that's harder to do. But as I think Matt or Mark are saying, on Netflix and on other streamers and cable, they need more content, they need more shows and original ideas.
Mark Altman:
But the funny thing that you talked about David is now somebody could break in with a fresh, original voice. They won't even get IP. They won't even get a show runner. maybe they get co-IP if they're lucky, which is crazy. That somebody creates this, they come up with something amazing. It's one thing to have a co-show to show them the ropes, because they don't know this business. But the red carpet is not rolled out for them. It's a widget. It's not valued.
Marta Kauffman:
After we did Dream On where we were very fortunate that they let us run the show, we were at the same time developing for Norman Lear and he did not let us run the show. So, yeah it is hard to get people to encourage show running as you're breaking in.
Matt Witten:
Just to reiterate something that Mark said, it's really been a big change. If you want to create a show now, it helps so much if you have intellectual property. If it's based on a novel, a stage play, a TV show that was successful in Israel, whatever it might be, it's really way more important than it used to be. And the other thing we haven't talked about so much is I definitely get the impression that the industry is much more receptive to minorities and women as writers than it used to be. So, I think that's been a real big change that I've seen since I started.
Arnon Shorr:
On the topic of IP and having other content and writing other content, many of you started in theater and wrote plays. Mark you've written books. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the differences in what it means to write a play versus a TV show. Or even going between movies and TV and the thought process that goes into that. Let's see. Mark maybe if you could start, because you've seen a broad range of media.
Mark Altman:
I broke in doing Indie features before I did television. It was the era of... There was the post-sex Liza videotape where you would make something for no money like Swingers and go to Sundance and sell it for a bunch of money. This was not a good model for people to count on, myself included. And we made some dumb choices. Our first film, I mean, New Line wanted to buy it and we were like, "They're not offering enough money, so we'd rather wait until Miramax sees it." And it's just like stupid thing. Youth is wasted on the young. I loved working in features, but it kept taking longer and longer to develop things. And a lot of things did not turn out the way I hoped because you have to give up too much control. And as a result it's like, "I just gave up a couple years of my life to get this." It'd be less and less stuff that I was passionate about.
Mark Altman:
So, making the move to television was really great, as the industry was changing. Because features were becoming less sexy, TV was becoming more. Over the last 10 years TV, there's so many more opportunities than there are in features. And a lot more interesting work is being done in television than is being done in features for the most part. So, I was really glad to make that transition. And I did it by hitching my cart to a friend who was already working in TV. We decided to work together, and that was great, having a writing partner. Initially he took the lead and over time, I took the lead on the whole thing. But it was great because you have somebody to bitch to as well, who understands what you're going through.
Mark Altman:
So, it was a really great process to have someone that you could be sabbatical with and work with. He wasn't my best friend, he's still not my best friend. The first thing we did together was Castle, David will remember. And I remember walking in the first day and we had these two desks facing each other, and we'd never worked in a room together because everything we'd done had been separate. I was like, "I don't know if we're going to kill each other, if this is even going to work." And fortunately it did. But it was pretty scary for a while, it's like, would we even be able to get along? We didn't like having desks facing each other. It was like, "God, we've got to look at each other all day."
David Grae:
Well, I can answer the question definitively Arnon. Which is, if he could write a good play, if you`re a good playwright, you could absolutely write for television. It might not go the other way. The absolute hardest thing to do is a play. Because not only can you not say what the character is thinking, which you typically can't do on television, you also can't zoom in and show something. It all has to come out. Pretty much all of it needs to be in the dialogue, maybe some with some actions, but that people could see from way far back. So, that's by far the hardest, in my opinion. And you have to have an ear for dialogue to write television. I think particularly sitcoms. I don't think there's anywhere to hide in a sitcom in terms of being a good writer.
David Grae:
You could hide in a procedural because it's a little like being a mechanic sometimes. And it's about unfurling these mysteries over canvas of four or five or six acts of network television. A lot of sitcoms, you don't want the writing to be... You don't want a lot of flair. You just want the mystery to be the star and that. But the movement in dramas is more toward more character, more humor. And like I said, in sitcoms, there's nowhere to hide.
David Grae:
I mean, I had a funny experience going from the show Without a Trace to Gilmore Girls, which really was an hour comedy. And I remember that Without a Trace writers being a little snobby, like thinking, "We're such a hard-edged show. We were the number two show in the country." Well, I didn't consider it writing, it really was like being a mechanic. I don't think anyone else in that stuff could have written Gilmore Girls where you actually had to write with rhythm and flair and humor. But there's this weird thing in the procedural world about hard edge, which, "We're going to write about a back room poker room where they're abusing women. That's a hard edge." I don't know. As opposed to just good writing.
Marta Kauffman:
I think either way, television writing is meant to be heard. And people watch TV while they're cooking dinner, while they're folding their laundry. It's very intimate in a weird way. And I think the writing is crucial in either the procedural, the drama or the comedy, because you may not be able to look up from what you're doing with your laundry to get the full picture. So I think in each of these cases, the words are crucial. And I would also say for anyone who's writing, you've got to have a way to hear the words out loud. Because you write them and they sound like one thing in your brain and then you hear them out loud and actors breathe life into it. And even writers who read each other's stuff, breathe life into it. And it's a whole new way of embracing what you've written and dealing with what you've written.
Mark Altman:
Don't use final draft's audio module where it goes, "This is a very interesting panel that never works. It's the worst."
David Grae:
But building on what Marta said, it's worth remembering that television evolved from radio, which is exactly what Martha was talking about. It literally that CBS radio, I think became CBS broadcasting and ended up doing television and film. Movies started out as silent movies where there were no words, and that's why they're a directors' medium. Television is a writer's medium. And so it's all about the words. Absolutely.
Matt Witten:
You know, for me, what's been the biggest difference about between TV writing and other kinds of writing is really the passion that I have when I'm writing it. Speaking, I've never created a show, but I've written for about eight or nine different TV shows. And when you're writing for a show that you're not exactly passionate about, you do your best and you try to put your whole soul into it and you try to believe in it and you try to make this episode of JAG be better than Shakespeare. But when I'm writing for television show, I don't generally go to sleep dreaming about the characters or thinking about them. Like, when I wrote for House, I love Hugh Laurie. Loves the character. But it's not like, I was obsessed by him exactly. And so it was something like David describes. It's like a technical exercise to some extent. You really want to put everything together in a certain kind of way.
Matt Witten:
When I write a novel, I go to bed thinking about the characters. When I wake up in the middle of the night or first thing in the morning, I'm thinking about the characters. And I think my writing is better. I think I'm a better novelist probably than a TV writer, just because I'm more passionate about it. I just care so deeply about it. And writing for TV, you try to care deeply. You try to think every single thing possible about House or whoever the character might be. And think about that character as deeply as you can. You do, that's your aspiration as a writer. And that's what I do. But it comes more naturally and maybe it would come naturally if I created a TV show, that would be a different thing, but it just comes more naturally when I'm writing a novel. I don't have to try to make myself care. It's there deeply cause the reason I wrote that thing in the first place was because this character appeared to me or whatever this character was just so crucial to me.
Michelle Miller:
Here's the difference when either way, when you've created the character or the story, you have a much greater investment in that story, I think. And which is why I didn't want to go into somebody else's show and I started. But when you've created the character and the world, you wake up thinking about it. It's three o'clock in the morning when you wake up, that's what you dream about. So I totally understand what you're saying.
Michelle Miller:
Yeah. I mean.
Matt Witten:
I just want to say.
Mark Altman:
Oh, go ahead Dave.
David Grae:
Oh yeah. I was just going to say that I think it's absolutely true. And I would just want to add, I did become incredibly passionate about writing for Madam Secretary and it really took off after Trump was elected because it was this platform to reach millions of people. And every episode I did, I did a two-part episode about separating children from their parents at the border. I did a lesson in the 25th amendment. How the section four of the 25th amendment, how to remove a President if he's acting crazy. And then we did a whole white nationalism arc and international white nationalism and malicious becoming domestic terrorists. I mean, we basically almost did like a January 6th, even though the show ended a year ago. So that's how I found my incredible passion for it.
David Grae:
I did an anti-vaxxer episode because I'm passionate about being anti anti-vaxxer. And so there again I totally agree. I mean, I think that it's important, especially for people breaking in, do what you're passionate about. I mean, I had a totally unsuccessful, I don't know what to call it career or not career, as a screenwriter. I wrote with a partner, 11 screenplays, feature length screenplays. We had more than a hundred meetings all over town, every studio and we just became close a few times, never sold anything. And I only broke into the business when I did the cure for that, which was, I just wrote a play. I didn't try to hit any mark. I didn't try to write the thing that was in the Zeitgeists. I just wrote a play only for me. Totally theatrical. That was the play that got me my first TV writing job, because I was passionate about it. So whatever you're doing, write haiku, as long as you're passionate about it and it'll lead somewhere, I think. Yeah.
Mark Altman:
I have to say, it's so funny, even though I'm doing a dopey SCFI thing, we like to do things through allegory and metaphor and also had a great experience attacking Trump and Trump ism in the 22nd century as well. And nothing was better than on the next day on Twitter reading these outrage conservatives who are so upset that we were attacking their boy. So that was fun. But I have to say for those who are at Brandeis, you were so lucky to be going to a liberal arts school. People are always asking these pounds. Should I take a producing class? Should I take a television class. No, you should take a life class. We should learn. I was a political science major. Learn as much and have as many experiences when this pandemic is over, travel study abroad, just soak everything up.
Mark Altman:
That's what will make your writing interesting rather than, in the golden age of TV, you look at these people are so fascinating and people now are too. And don't just understand TV, but conversely, and I think this is a big thing for me, it is very important to understand the history of television and the history of film. Nothing makes me crazier than when I go into a pitch and such as "Jill's and Jim meets tequila sunrise". And they look at you like, "What's Jill's and Jim?" And it's like, oh, this is painful. But you know what tequila sunrise is? No. But you know who Robert Town is? And it's like, ah, it makes me insane. So it's so important to understand the history, where you come from. Just like in Judaism, we teach about how important it is to understand your roots and where you come from.
Mark Altman:
In television and features it's so important to understand the history. And especially now I read a lot of people say "We have nothing to learn from movies before 1978. Or you want to write comedy. Look at Ernie Lehman. Look at Billy Wilder. It's so instructive. And it's all there for the taking. It's not as hard as when we were young. We really had to struggle. We had to go to the Brattle. You can go walk across the room and hit your button on 900 streaming channels and watch this stuff.
Michelle Miller:
But let me say back to Jim Clay, I think the study of theater and playwriting also leads you to this. And that's what he taught me. That you can look at the structure of a play and understand what the structure of a TV show or a movie should be. And, I believe that the study of theater will really inform the writing of television.
David Grae:
Absolutely. Yep.
Arnon Shorr:
Oh, it is 4:58 on the West coast. I think it is time to kick things back over to Michelle. Because I know that as we've been talking, the chat has been exploding with all sorts of questions and I want to make sure we give some time for some of those questions to come up. So Michelle, if you would take it away.
Michelle Miller:
Guys, I will say we've had some amazing questions. It's going to be a little difficult for me to choose. I'll also say that I just got a call from Brandeis. So I feel like they want my money right now. So, I'm going to just going to tell them after that I am doing this, hopefully that's sufficient for now. Okay. So many questions, guys, this was very difficult. The first one I want to ask is what do you do when you struggle with writer's block or creatives block? I talk about this specifically. I remember David Gray had a great answer to this on the phone.
David Grae:
I got to jump in. If you're a professional writer, it doesn't exist. It's an excuse. It's like saying, if you're a pipe fitter and you have pipe fitters blocked, or you're a janitor and you have mopping block. You have to lower your standards. Not everything's the great American novel. Here's my two cents. If I ever become a guru and a self-help expert, I think lowering your standards is the key to happiness in life. I'm just saying. But, the writer's block, I just think is bullshit. And you certainly, if you have writer's block, don't be a TV writer, be a novelist. I mean.
Michelle Miller:
Right. I agree with you cannot have writer's block and be a TV writer. I have to say that every blank page scared the fuck out of me. It's awful. But in terms of what David is saying, I always do what I call a vomit draft. Just to get words on paper. Just get it down. And then do the rewrite, which is much more fun.
David Grae:
Totally agree.
Michelle Miller:
And David, I also remember you once said, which really stuck with me, is give yourself a deadline, right? Just give yourself a deadline, just do it. And that really helps
David Grae:
You have to. When I taught creative writing 20, 25, 27 years ago in New York, I had a very successful journalist come in, who was in his mid sixties. He said he never missed a deadline in a 40 year career in journalism, but he could never finish a short story that he was just writing for himself. So.
Michelle Miller:
That doesn't check out for me. I brought that up quite a few times actually. And everyone goes, that's brilliant. This is from Debra Curtis.
David Grae:
And my suggestion by the way, would be to exercise. I suggested.
Marta Kauffman:
Well, and also learn your rhythms. Everyone has different rhythms to write and they have to figure them out. I know that in my case, I have to ride waves. Other people can say, I can go to work between nine and two nonstop. Other people say, I'm going to get this many words down on paper. You have to learn your own process.
Michelle Miller:
I love that. Yeah. I read Shonda Rhimes once said that, for her writing was like a marathon. The first few miles are really hard, but then once you kind of get to a certain place, it's smooth sailing. Don't interrupt me when I'm in that place or else I won't get there. This question is from Deborah Curtis, who was part of our film and TV executives panel last week. What's one big lesson learned along the way that you wish you knew before you stepped into the situation be it either starting out as a staff writer, as a new showrunner?
Marta Kauffman:
All right, I'll jump in. I think I wish I had lifted up more voices of color. I wish I had been more conscious of hiring in an equitable way. At the time I called myself colorblind and now I kind of say I was just blind. And that's my greatest, greatest wish that I had known then what I know now.
David Grae:
I'll say it Marta, I've read some of what you said on this recently, which I appreciate. There was a crazy thing and you'll remember better than me, but in the business and maybe this was, I don't need to kick it back to Deborah, but everyone is to blame. There's no question. But the view was there are black shows and there were white shows or there are urban shows in there. And I remember when I worked on Gilmore Girls. It was an old white writing staff. And we were on the Warner Brothers lot. And we were next door to the show Girlfriends, which I think was on UPN. And it was pretty much an all black staff and we'd see each other out. We had a basketball hoop and we'd just see each other out in the street or see each other going into each other's. And that was the black show. And I guess we were the white show. And that was it was just so ingrained in it. It's crazy that it was like that. But it's just right Marta, I'm not excusing it at all. It's crazy. I don't know how they did the math on advertising. I don't know. It's not an excuse. It's just the way it seemed to be back then.
David Grae:
I'll answer the question. my quick answer though, to the question is the reverse. I'm glad I didn't know about the psychopaths on either side of the camera. Because I might not have gotten into the business. Its like I used to feel like when I lived in London for the year. I always attracted. I'd be at the tube stop minding my own business late at night. And the wackos would always be. The honey and the flies would come to. There are a lot of spoiled, insane psychopaths, whether it's certain showrunners or actors or directors. And I didn't realize that. And I literally read a couple books on psychopaths, like 12 or 13 years ago, because I wanted to get to know my showrunner a little better. Yeah.
Michelle Miller:
Frantically researches all the show runners you've worked for. Not Barbara Hill. Definitely, let's say right there not Barbara Hill.
Matt Witten:
I guess one thing I've learned over the years, I kind of thought that when I got older, I would get wiser and I'm not exactly sure that that's happened. But what I have realized is that nobody else actually knows anything either. And I wish that I had realized when I was younger than everybody else was just as confused as I am.
Mark Altman:
Yeah. I think you go with that, the old Bill Goldman adage, that's a good one, which is nobody knows anything. And that would be regret. Sometimes you're chasing what's a trend. Just write what you're passionate about. Don't try and chase what's popular. By the time you do it, people can tell you're just trying to do what's trendy right then. And I think write stuff. The stories that you just want to tell. That's it. Hopefully that that'll go. Other people want to hear it.
Michelle Miller:
Love it. So actually, I want to ask a question about writing. Who reads your work? Obviously, all of you guys have your own process, but who do you give writing to? I know David, you said you're now essentially developing a whole series and are used to having a writer's room under you. How do you guys, Who do you send your writing to now?
David Grae:
Definitely. I always do that to make sure I'm not fucking crazy to show it to my wife. That's basically the only buffer. And it's funny because I do it less, the longer I've been working. I stopped showing her just a draft of episodes I've written on a show long ago. But she still gets all the pilots and every step of the way on the pilot, she gets the outline and I get her notes. But other than that, that's just a weird thing about development. But I think a lot of people do have a network of friends that they use. And I do that sometimes, I guess in pilot development. This pilot I'm working on now happens to be, a SCFI concept actually that made my head spin. And it's a ton of research and all sorts of experts in oceanography and Astro biology and all sorts of stuff. And so I brought in a really smart, mid-level writer to co-create it with me. Two people is a writer's room. That's a writer's room. So it does make it a lot more efficient.
Mark Altman:
I want to answer the question I wish you asked, rather than the question you did ask, which is for young aspiring people who are breaking in. Don't expect your friends to read all six drafts. Wait until it's as good as it possibly is and then ask the favor. Because it's always okay to ask the favor once, and then people are really happy to help you. But when you start to become, even if it's your best friend is draft six draft seven draft stop. And particularly if you know somebody in the industry who's going to do you a favor, make sure you put your absolute best foot forward. You think it's good enough? Wait a week, read it again. Don't take advantage of those favors and expect that door will always be open to you. Not because people are jerks. It's just, people are really busy and if you are reading scripts for a living, reading scripts as a favor, isn't as much fun or you just don't have the time for it.
Marta Kauffman:
And I try to offer. Sorry, I just don't, go ahead.
Mark Altman:
People aren't as effective too, when they read it for the third or the fourth or the fifth time. They're just not as good at it. They're going to miss things. I use the give it to the wife strategy as certainly my go to. I'm also in a writer's group that meets every Friday. So we read 20 pages at a time. And then when I finish a draft, I'll give it to the two or three people over the years that I've learned that I can really trust to give me smart notes. I don't give it to five or six or seven because it makes my head explode, but I don't give it to just one. I give it to two or three people, each draft. And if I do more than one draft, I have to give it to two or three other people. And also I think it's really helpful to have people read it out loud. If it's a script, have them do a Zoom reading. God willing when we get around to not needing Zoom, invite them over to your house. Give them pizza and have them read it out loud. So that's another strategy.
Marta Kauffman:
I often try to trade reads with screenwriting friends if I have a new draft. So, I'll find out who's got something new that they need notes on and we just swap. And that way there's a little bit of a quid pro quo and it sort of balances out a little bit. But I'm not a panelist I should say.
Michelle Miller:
Oh no. That's great advice. No, no, I appreciate that. Oh, okay. Someone asked this. It's a newer question. Once you have a completed script, do you have recommendations for next steps? Let's say you had it work shopped. You hadn't read aloud. Do you recommend selling it somewhere? Do you recommend writing contests? What would be the next step you do with your script? I know there's a lot.
Marta Kauffman:
It's a tough question. One of the options is that you find someone who will champion your script, an agent, a manager, a showrunner, a production company. If you can find a way to get your script to some of those people, that would be extremely useful. And then there are all the contests. But I have to be honest, I've never hired anyone based on a contest.
Michelle Miller:
Good to know.
David Grae:
The programs are great, but they're very competitive. Like Warner Brothers has an hour drama programming and what you would call a comedy program. And they tend to place their writers. They'll give a writer tomorrow and say, here's someone. You don't have to pay this person on a network show or one of those charts. And we've seen people really succeed from that. I've worked with writers who really have been lifted up by that. When I applied to the Warner Brothers program and they had no interest in me off of my spec. And I found out I got my first job around the same time I found out they rejected me. It's like you have to try every way, I think is the answer. It's whatever works for you.
Michelle Miller:
That's great advice.
David Grae:
I agree in the champion con, but Marta, if there's a young person who will just bust it and do everything they can, because they're trying to make their own career on your script, that's that kind of passion, energy, that's how you get stuff made. Whether it's a young producer or a young agent, or a young manager, someone who wants to get off a desk as an assistant, and your writing could be their ticket to what they want to do.
Michelle Miller:
Excellent. Just a couple more questions, we are getting so many good ones. Someone asked Gabriel Shore, I'd been told TV is a writer's medium, but film is a director's medium. Do you think that still holds true to some extent?
Marta Kauffman:
Why do you think we keep doing TV? It is the writer's medium. The showrunner holds the vision, not the director. So all the writers are part of that vision and their scripts are in that vision. And the director then has to respond to that because they know the one episode they're doing, not the whole course of the series. And then in a film, a writer may write something, but it then becomes the director's vision. So yeah, that's why I stay in TV.
David Grae:
And I think a lot of directors fuck up perfectly good scripts because they have some vision. There are a lot of great directors, but I think in film they're given too much authority to just screw up a perfectly good script because of their vision of how they think of this to be, when really it's all there on the page if it's a good script. And in television the writer has to be the showrunner because, like Marta said, the writer is the only one who could answer the question. It's by necessity. I'm sure if executives could figure out a way to make writers not the showrunners, they would. Some executives would.
Mark Altman:
That's happening now, unfortunately.
David Grae:
What's that?
Mark Altman:
You see some of these streamers, they're basically having the writers write a full season and then sending it off with a director and trying to keep the end of... Something the WGA's going to have to get involved with, because it's obviously... Some of these people, they would be more than happy to have showrunners out of the equation because standing up for what we believe in. And the thing that's really important to understand about showrunning is it's not just writing. The first thing you learn in the showrunners training program, anytime you read about showrunning, it's hiring people, it's building a small company, it's hiring your production designer, and your costume designer, and your cast, and your casting director.
Mark Altman:
And there's so many decisions you're making every day about the cut, about the editing, about the music, the composer. So, writing is only a part of it. So, if you're lucky enough to have your own series get picked up, a fraction of your day is devoted to writing. There's so many other decisions that you're making. And that's not a nine to five thing, that's a 24... It means you can't stop thinking about it, it's 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And you're watching cuts and you're giving notes. It doesn't stop and you got to love it.
David Grae:
But it all comes from the creative vision, which could only come from one person or two people or whoever the creator or the showrunner who makes it their baby. But it's got to be the writer who has the whole thing in their head.
Marta Kauffman:
And another issue is so many people were trying to get the executive producer credit. And this is, don't even start me on this one, my head will explode, but the showrunner, that's the credit, the executive producer credit. And the people in the studio and on the network are getting that credit for giving you notes, makes me insane. It makes me insane. And I think the Writers Guild needs to get involved in this and start to find a credit that differentiates the executive producer.
David Grae:
That's a good point. I've worked on two shows...
Mark Altman:
Like they use to have executive in charge of production.
David Grae:
Yeah. I've worked at two shows with executive producers who I never met, like had a driving dog, I never met him. I was there for a year.
Michelle Miller:
Yeah, I don't think also people know, I'm just going to go off of Mark's thought for a second. As an actor, the actors are decided by the showrunners. So I don't know if everyone knows that, but when the actor puts their tape or goes to a casting director's office, the person making the decision on that actor is the showrunner. So the showrunner does everything. It's a very all-inclusive job. You guys do so much. It's crazy.
Marta Kauffman:
It's an awesome job.
Michelle Miller:
Awesome job. It's just so insane, to me, to think about how much you guys have to be responsible for and constantly. It sounds like a every day, seven days a week, type of job. What's a good ask that people who do get to meet you, that you want them to ask you? And the reason why I'm asking this is I once talked to Stan Brooks, or he actually mentioned it in a... If you guys know him, he's a film producer. But he was on one of our original panels and he said, he really hates it when people ask him something and he's like, "This is not.. I'm not able to do this." What's a good ask if someone comes into the room or someone's able to talk with you, what do you want them to ask you? What's a good ask? That's going to be different for different people. Obviously, it's objective.
Marta Kauffman:
Wow.
Marta Kauffman:
I think for me, a good... It depends. If we're talking about someone who's breaking in, a good ask is, "How do I learn more?" That, to me, is the best ask, as opposed to merely, "How do I get an agent?" Or "How do I get a manager?" I think, "How do I learn more?" And "How do I participate in the process in order to learn more?"
Michelle Miller:
Wow. So good. Yeah. I want people, especially any of you guys who are listening, I also learn from everyone here, obviously, but I think that's so important to know if you're in school, if you're in Brandeis still, if you just graduated, if you're been doing this for years, that's so key because you don't want to ask sort of the same old question I think everyone gets, which is "Can you introduce me to someone? Can you read all this that I have? Can you be my champion right off the bat without knowing me?" So I appreciate that.
Mark Altman:
Tell you what not to ask. Don't ask, "How can I avoid anybody stealing my ideas?" I always have the same answer. I say, "It very rarely happens." And "If you have one good idea, you're in the wrong business."
Mark Altman:
It's like he was so worried about people stealing their script ideas.
Matt Witten:
I'm happy if writers move out to LA and they want to have coffee with me or whatever, I'm happy to give them the rap about how to make it as a TV writer for 45 minutes, an hour, answer whatever questions they have. Basically, I say what we've been saying in this Zoom, but I'm happy to give somebody a general, kind of concept. I don't know, just general starting out.
David Grae:
I agree. That's the best ask. "Can I pick your brain for 45 minutes or an hour?" I never, ever say no when someone asks that because there but for the grace of God, everyone who's successful in this business got lucky at some point, everyone. And I'd include Steven Spielberg in that and some of the most successful people, it's just... And so, they had someone who listened to them and just to point you in the right direction. I've never, ever said no to anyone. But don't ask me to read your script if I don't know you. I'll read...
Marta Kauffman:
Don't ask for money.
Michelle Miller:
Great rule of thumb.
Mark Altman:
I had somebody that contacted me, it happens. And I said, "Look, I would love to meet you." I said, "I'm particularly busy right now, but reach out to me in like a month or two and hopefully I'll have more time." And they were good enough not to be too persistent because they reached out and they said, "Is now a good time." And I'm like, "It's not, but don't take this as a blow off. Give me another couple of weeks." And, meanwhile, in the process, I had hired a writer's assistant on my show the first season, who I'd used on another show, who I really liked. And we were starting up the writer's room before all the money had come in so, literally, I said to the writer's assistant, I said, "Okay, me and the other executive producer are going to go to Trader Joe's and pick up all the stuff for the writer's room. I need you to go to Office Max to pick up yellow stickies and pens and to do all this." And he goes, "I'm not a PA. I'm not a PA." Meanwhile, I just told him how me and the other executive producer are actually picking up all this stuff ourselves. And then he has this incredible opportunity and we're giving him a script too. And I said, "And now you're not a writer's assistant."
Mark Altman:
So that day I fired him because it was unconscionable that he didn't want to be a team player. And the same day, this other guy who had been calling me once every month or two said, "Hey, I just want to find out if you had time for coffee. I just finished on American Gods. I was the writer's assistant." I said, "Really?" I said, "Would you like to come into the room for a week and be a writer's assistant? And if it's a good fit for you, and it's a good fit for us, I'd love to hire you." And he's like, "Oh my God." So he said "This beats coffee, right?" I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "Yes." And so he came in, he was great. He was my writer's assistant the first season.
Marta Kauffman:
Michelle, there was a question here I just wanted to quickly address. About is it common for you to be asked to rewrite? It is not only common, it is welcomed. I call myself a notes whore. I will take ideas from anyone if it makes it better. And there's no reason not to rewrite because nothing that you write is perfect and it can only get better, as long as your vision remains. You can't change the vision in the middle. But if you know what you feel passionate about and you address the heart of the note that someone is giving you, it can only make it better.
Michelle Miller:
Love it. I'm finding it very hard guys to end it. I feel like, maybe, we have time for just one more question. It's very difficult. So I'll just end it on a somewhat positive note. Is there a show on the air right now, other than the one you might be working on, that you wish you could write for? Or that you love and just respect and admire?
David Grae:
I'll jump right in on that. I mean, I would be a staff writer on Succession. I just think that is the... I'll do a freelance. I'll be a PA on Succession. I think that's the best written show since The Sopranos. It's just my kind of thing. I'm bummed I didn't create it. I just think it's a great show.
Marta Kauffman:
You know, I always come back to, it's not a show that's on the air now, but the movie I wish I'd written was Terms of Endearment. I wish I'd written that movie. I think it is so many things, beautiful character studies, funny, emotional, painful, it's everything. And it reminds me of what I'd like to do with my work.
Mark Altman:
Yeah. I think I would say there's shows that I love; I don't know if I'd want to go and work on these shows, because again, I think once you have the opportunity to create your own shows, that's what you want to do. Plus I can't write in French, so I can't be on Call My Agent! But there's stuff that I'm watching, like What We Do in the Shadows and Loop and a couple other shows I've really been enjoying. And we are in a really golden age, platinum age of television. I think for me, it's sort of like, "Hey, what show would you remake if you had the opportunity?" And that, to me, I always have my sort of stock answer.
Mark Altman:
There was a show that was sort of the beginning of serialized TV in the late eighties, which was a Stephen Cannell show called Wiseguy, which I think is ripe for reinvention, as they say. But so much great television. We're so lucky to live in a world where there is this abundance of riches everywhere you look.
Mark Altman:
And it's all instructional. You should read other scripts. You should read scripts from the shows you love, from the great TV shows, read Vince Gilligan, read these people. You will learn so much.
Matt Witten:
I also love Call My Agent! The one show that I watched that just blows my mind is The Affair. And I watch it, my jaws dropping because it's just so amazing. It's got everything that I love. It's a great crime show, which I love crime shows. The writing of the characters, each individual scene is just so beautiful. The dialogue is great. The characters are great. The moral complexity is fabulous. And it's also structurally interesting. It has these different perspectives in each episode. So, I would say, that's the one show that I just watched and I go, "Oh my God, this is just incredible."
Mark Altman:
I want to watch David Grae's episode of Succession. I'll watch anything with Succession, but particularly David Grae's episode of Succession.
David Grae:
And I want to, maybe after we're done with this Marta, I just want to talk to you about I'm borrowing some money. So if we could...
Michelle Miller:
Yeah, I have three scripts I want each of you to read.
David Grae:
Get in line. Get in line.
Michelle Miller:
And I need a champion, guys. I need a champion behind them. Guys, thank you so much. This has been so valuable. So appreciated. We really thank you on behalf of the entire Brandeis community. Thank you guys all for, just all your wisdom and guidance. We want to make sure that there is a thriving community for Brandeis alum in entertainment. So we appreciate you. Guys, I put down an email if any of you have any suggestions for future guests, future panels, email us there.
Mark Altman:
Michelle, can I interrupt for one second? I just want to plug a panel this weekend I recorded, which is relevant to this, which is the only reason I'm mentioning it. WonderCon is a live event that was done virtually because of the pandemic. And I moderated a panel with about 10 showrunners, wonderful talent, people from The Flight Attendant, from The Boys, from The Summer I Turned Pretty, a wonderful group of showrunners and writers. And it'll be on YouTube through the Comic-Con WonderCon portal starting on Saturday. And I think we're doing a club house on Sunday with a bunch of the writers and all wonderfully talented showrunners. Since we recorded it already, I know how articulate they were in talking about what they do. And so I just want to plug that, in case any of you are interested in hearing more about writing for TV.
David Grae:
And I wanted to add just two quick things. One is, and I think other people have mentioned, and I wanted to say that Brandeis ended up being the perfect school for me and that the English department and theater department made me into... Whatever success I have, I really owe to everything I learned back then. And it was incredible. And I want to thank just, thanks, Michelle. Thank you, Michelle and Arnon. You do a absolute great job putting this together. It's an honor to be a part of it for me, and I know for everyone else and really you guys, wonderful, great job. Thank you.
Matt Witten:
And Michelle if you ever do write something, any of us would be happy to read it for you.
Mark Altman:
Yeah. I want to echo how great Brandeis is. I think it's so important. It was incredible, incredible four years. Still so many friends and so much that I take away from Brandeis. And remember the guy on Castle that first year David, was also Brandeis alum. We had three Brandeis alums in the writer's room. Remember Leslie Valdez? We couldn't believe it. We're like, "How could there be three of us on one show?" But it was... Brandeis is really a remarkable... I mean, what college has a castle? Come on, I mean, it's great.
David Grae:
The Brandeis mafia.
Michelle Miller:
I have to ask one more thing because I saw it in the chat and I know people want to know. I think I already know the answer to this because I heard Marta Kauffman's on The Hollywood Reporter Awards Chatter podcast talk about this, but Marta, can you let us know how much of Friends and specifically Chums was inspired by Brandeis? I got the question. It wasn't...
Arnon Shorr:
Central Perk. Central Perk
Marta Kauffman:
I hate to do this...
Michelle Miller:
Central Perk. I meant that.
Marta Kauffman:
I hate to do this to you, but it was not connected at all. It was about a coffee house that I saw when I moved to LA called Insomnia Cafe and it just struck me what an interesting notion. And it wasn't about Cholmondeley's at all. I'm developing the next show.
Michelle Miller:
As a former tour guide for Brandeis, they tell us to tell that story. And so they bait... Someone needs to talk to them. But thank you for clearing that up for all of us.
Marta Kauffman:
I took my daughter on a tour of Brandeis and they said that and she looked at me like, "Don't you say a word."
Arnon Shorr:
I want to just jump in and say, first of all, it's really been an honor and a pleasure for us, Michelle and I have been really excited about this panel for a really long time. And we are doing this because we want to help build the Brandeis network in the entertainment industry. We've got a lot of people here in this chat, in this Zoom, who are Brandeisians, who are connected to the industry. There is a Facebook group, Brandeis Alumni in Film and Television. I started it a bunch of years ago when I came out here to California and there wasn't a network, but now there is. And we're alumni and we're hiring each other and helping each other and supporting each other and cheering each other on. So, join the Facebook group and be part of it. That's what we're building.
Michelle Miller:
I want to say really quickly, just very quickly. I want to thank Courtney at Brandeis. I want to thank, obviously, our alumni group and Maleek and Matt Krinsky are currently in the room right now. So, thank you guys for all you do. Thank you Arnon, obviously, for being the best moderator. And we appreciate everyone for attending and for all our panelists. Thank you guys. This recording will be available. So, some point if you want to send it to someone, please do. And we appreciate you. Have a wonderful evening.