Amy Cohen:
Welcome, everyone. And thank you for joining us tonight. My name is Amy Cohen, and I'm a member of the class of '85, and a vice president of the Alumni Board. I'm also proud to say that I along with Tolly Potter class of '97, our co-chair of the Brandeis Women's Network. For those of you who don't know, the Brandeis Women's Network is a relatively new organization. Our mission is simple, to foster and build connections between Brandeis women. Since our formation in June of 2019, our network has grown tremendously. We have a Facebook group that now has over 1300 members. If you're an alumna or mother of a Brandeisian, you can find us by searching Brandeis Women, one word. I encourage you if you haven't to please join us.
Amy Cohen:
In addition, we've been thrilled to offer a wide variety of programming to the entire Brandeis community, such as tonight's event co-hosted with the Alumni of Color Network. Before we begin, I have a few housekeeping matters to share. First, we'll be reserving time at the end of the discussion for questions. If you have a question, we are asking that you post it in the Q&A and not the chat function. We will not be checking the chat function for questions. That being said, we expect to have many questions and we'll do our best to address them. Also, this event is being recorded and will be available in the Brandeis Virtual Library found on the Brandeis Alumni Association website. I would now like to turn the program over to Liane Hypolite, class of 2010 and Ashlee Hypolite, class of 2013, who will moderate our discussion.
Amy Cohen:
Liane is an alumni board member at Brandeis and the co-chair of the Alumni of Color Network. She is also an assistant professor of educational leadership at Cal Poly Pomona. She teaches courses and conducts research relating to fostering educational equity for low income first generation to college and racially minority students as they transition from high school to higher education. Ashlee currently works in the cultural business strategy at Creative Artists Agencies where she works with clients at the intersection of social impact and entertainment. She has led and contributed to initiatives like The Social Change Fund United, Time's Up and Amplify, an initiative to connect business leaders across industries, creators, artists, and social justice leaders of color. Without further ado, Liane and Ashlee, I turn it over to you.
Liane Hypolite:
Thank you so much, Amy. And welcome to everyone who is here with us in our virtual space. I wanted to start off our evening by just having a moment of silence for the individuals who were murdered in Atlanta, Georgia. While we know it was a group of people who lived full lives, where they were able to impact their families and their communities in positive ways. We also know that there was a gendered and racialized targeting of Asian women in this incident. So we want to just take a moment for everyone to think about these human beings and their contributions to our world. Thank you, everyone.
Ashlee Hypolite:
Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining us today. I will continue with a few of the bios of some of our panelists that are joining us today. We are so excited to get this conversation going. So in case you haven't read up, I will read Taisha's bio right now. So Taisha Sturdivant is a real estate attorney with considerable professional and volunteer experience. Though when listing her greatest achievements, she always includes the fact that she jumped out of the very first airplane she ever boarded as part of Brandeis's skydiving and future endeavors club. And Fun fact, when Tai and I were working in the info booth, she actually convinced me to go to Senegal and it was one of the most life changing experiences.
Ashlee Hypolite:
So Tai is just changing lives out here. And moving on to Pamela Kate Anderson, alumni board member at Brandeis University. She is a senior leader with extensive experience in strategic planning, board governance and executive leadership, skilled at effectively working with domestic and global organizations to identify critical management issues, develop acceptable operating plans and deliver strong financial and operating results. So thank you both for joining us. We're very excited to start this conversation. So we're just going to kick it off with, please tell us about who you are and the work that you do.
Taisha Sturdivant:
Pamela, would you like to go first or do you have a preference?
Pamela Anderson:
Please go right ahead.
Taisha Sturdivant:
Sure. All right. So Hi, everyone. I'm Tai Sturdivant. I am a TYP alumn and graduated in Brandeis's class of 2011. I was born in Upstate New York, but my entire family is from Brooklyn. So if you're not from the boroughs in their mind, you can't even claim New York. So I often have to just tell people, I was raised in Boston and leave it at that. And I think that's fair, because I lived in Boston since I was six years old. In terms of my background, I had an incredible childhood, though was certainly not a very easy one. So when my family moved to Boston from New York, we took full advantage of our amazing healthcare system here that we did not have the benefit of in New York.
Taisha Sturdivant:
And unfortunately, through getting physical exams, something that's sort of run of the mill from a lot of families, we discovered that my mom was HIV positive when I was just six years old. So I share that, that sort of lends itself to my work, and I'll make that connection later. But sort of fast forward to when I was a sophomore in high school, my mom unfortunately developed lung cancer. And so she passed away when I was a sophomore in high school when I was 15 years old. So I have effectively raised myself since I was 15, finished high school obviously, put myself through Brandeis and through law school. So in terms of my work, I'm now an attorney and I practice Affordable Housing and Community Development Law. And we'll talk a little bit more I guess, about how all my experiences growing up sort of informed my practice. But Pamela, I want to turn it over to you now.
Pamela Anderson:
Well, thank you. And thank you to everyone for putting this together. What a wonderful opportunity to share with the Brandeis family? I'm originally from Chicago. I'm the seventh of eight kids. I have the opportunity, obviously to be a benefactor of the civil rights movement. So I had brothers and sisters who had gone to college, so my only choice was deciding where to go. They mostly had spent time staying in Chicago or staying in the state of Illinois. And I decided that I wanted to go away to school in the Boston area. So I ended up at Brandeis, sight unseen, not really knowing much about the university, its history or its founding. But obviously, I knew that social justice was important, I knew that Angela Davis, who was clearly my hero at that time and continues to be to this day went to Brandeis. And that's how I found myself there.
Pamela Anderson:
It was an incredible and wonderful opportunity for me, gave me the chance to study abroad in Bogota, Colombia, had an opportunity to just grow and learn in so many ways. So I left Brandeis and got in Masters of Business Administration at Northwestern University in Chicago, and I currently serve as director of organizational strategy and board development for nonprofit organization. So basically, I work with both internal and external stakeholders in making sure that the organization is strategically focused on delivering this mission. So I connect the dots between what we say we want to do and what we're doing and how much progress that we're making. And I'm based here in Silver Spring, Maryland.
Liane Hypolite:
Thank you both for sharing that. I want to kind of bring us to the present from the stories that you've shared. So can you tell us a bit about your educational and professional journeys in particular that have led you into your current roles and maybe how you both have experience the influence and potential differences based on your racial and gender identities?
Pamela Anderson:
Sure. I actually had the opportunity to start as a corporate banker. And I started at a time when a lot of financial institutions were beginning to embrace, allegedly to welcome women and people of color into their ranks. So again, it was a great foundation, but oftentimes you felt isolated because you were either one of the only or one of the few. So it was a brand new opportunity, a brand new environment, but fortunately met a lot of good people on the road that was able to help me as mentors and sponsors and just try to help me navigate that new space. But it was certainly a challenging environment, but it was a good solid foundation of learning about relationship management, learning about connecting with corporate clients, and just being able to kind of stand in my own presence with doing that kind of work.
Taisha Sturdivant:
Well, I'd say I had a really interesting sort of educational upbringing. So I mentioned my mom earlier, obviously, what I didn't mention is that she had only sort of held her high school diploma as we were growing up. And I say, "Held," I use that word very specifically because she did not earn her high school diploma, she held it. Her best friend's mom was an administrator at her high school, and printed off a high school diploma for both my mom and her best friend when she was a child. I didn't know that growing up, but I discovered after my mom got sick, because one thing about, I guess for some people learning about the fact that you might sort of have a terminal illness is that, for real some people they become more alive when they hear about death potentially knocking at their doorstep.
Taisha Sturdivant:
And that was certainly my mom's experience and she was very candid with us about that. So I distinctly remember my mom sort of obtaining her GED after she learned that she was ill, and registering in community college here in Boston, so that she could try to obtain her associate's degree. And that was so interesting to me to see her sort of come alive, take full advantage of education system, when presumably there were a lot of other things you could have been doing with what felt like limited time. So I sort of identify that as one of the most formative things that happened to me in my childhood that informed my decision to obtain certain degrees.
Taisha Sturdivant:
That being said, when I was in high school, I really had no desire to go to college. Like I said, I was living with a mom who was ill, I was very distracted, I had a lot of behavioral challenges, if I'm being completely honest, that resulted actually in me being kicked out of my very first high school. Fortunately for me, I then registered after my mom's passing in a college prep high school, that was far more rigorous, because it's just something I know that she would have wanted me to do. And that truly changed the trajectory of my life. So the headmaster there was a lawyer by training, introduced me to the law, planted that seed, and that's really what sort of set me on my path as it is.
Taisha Sturdivant:
That being said, in order to graduate from that high school, I was mandated to apply to and at least get accepted to one college. So that was the impetus for me applying for college. It wasn't something that I necessarily was going to do on my own volition, because frankly, I wanted to make money so that I could sort of stabilize my life and that was my focus. Fortunately, sort of, unfortunately, I guess I put all my eggs in one basket, I applied for the Posse scholarship, and did not get it. I made it all the way to the final round. I didn't get it, I was sort of devastated because everyone was like, "Oh, you're made for this. This is your scholarship for the taking," and it wasn't.
Taisha Sturdivant:
But the beautiful thing about the Posse Foundation is if you are a finalist, they forward your application, your common app to a number of other institutions that are sort of similar to the ones that you had picked as potential places. So they forwarded my application actually to Brandeis. I had not heard of Brandeis prior, I hadn't even had a walk, if I'm being frank and I grew up in Boston. But in any event, I landed at Brandeis, loved it, took full advantage of every opportunity, including designing my own major in urban education, and studying abroad in West Africa. And from Brandeis naturally just because of all the social justice initiatives that I was involved in, and also because of my housing instability, I ultimately decided that I wanted to go to law school to become an Affordable Housing and Community Development Attorney. So that's sort of my path.
Ashlee Hypolite:
Thank you for sharing, Pamela and Taisha. So now that we kind of contextualize this conversation around the election of Kamala Harris, we're just curious about your thoughts on the election of vice president Harris as the first woman, the first black woman and the first South Asian person in this role. So in general, what are your thoughts? And what did you notice about her journey pre and post the election? Pamela, if you'd like to start.
Pamela Anderson:
Well, obviously it was just incredible to see it all happening, all unfolding. The thing though that resonated most with me was how she talked about her experience at Howard University, a historically black college. And she talked about it in a way of how it helped informed her, and really helped to do the foundation of work that she actually was part of the debate class club, she did all these great things. So it just reminded me of the importance of college relationships and how things can begin there for you. She also talked about her involvement with the sorority, the AKA. Again, this is a relationship of black women that have been able to be together for years, decades as a support mechanism for each other to help decline and to support each other.
Pamela Anderson:
So that was the thing that I was most impressed with. She owned it. She embodied the core principles of it and she maintained those relationships and that commitment to some of the core principles that she picked up as an undergraduate. So I thought that was just so, I think it's so amazing that she's there and I'm so happy and pleased.
Taisha Sturdivant:
I'd said likewise, I'm obviously thrilled about the election of vice president Harris. Pamela already noted the many hats that she wears, and the fact that she's an HBCU grad, which I think is incredible. The fact that she's a member of AKA, I think it's just a beautiful thing, sort of those things matter for people who otherwise had maybe discounted their importance, I think. That being said, in terms of her journey, pre-election, what I thought was interesting, and this could have just been sort of in my social circles and sort of the spaces that I'm in online and algorithms, what have you. But I think that pre-election, I saw a lot of jokes and jabs about the fact that she wasn't necessarily black enough, or the fact that she was in an interracial marriage, or people were obviously very critical of her track record, particularly as a prosecutor.
Taisha Sturdivant:
I felt like there was a lot of noise about that and I thought that it was a little distracting, especially during her bid for President. And what I found and find interesting is the shift at least online as I see it, that has happened ever since her election. I think that people view her a lot more favorably. People who were sort of naysayers, I think, have viewed her a lot more favorably. I think rightfully so, I think people were extra critical of her as a black woman during her races. And now, I don't know if it's because people understand that we were really in triage mode, and that she is clearly overqualified, as far as I'm concerned for the job. And they appreciate the fact that her background lends itself to the work that she's doing, and maybe that's quieted folks.
Taisha Sturdivant:
But I don't know, that's just sort of something that I have observed online is the change in tone, for now talking about specific policies and what's going to happen during the administration, as opposed to talking about all of her personal characteristics and things that she brings to the table. Which is something that I haven't necessarily seen with a lot of other people in public service, people of color in public service. And I don't know sort of what to make of that, but it's just something that I've seen.
Liane Hypolite:
Thanks for sharing both the honor that it is to have her in this position, as well as the really like nuanced critiques that I feel like we all witnessed, especially, particularly before she and now President Biden were elected. So thank you for kind of bringing a lot of those discussions that were happening in the community to light. In thinking about your own professional roles, both currently but also in the past, what does leadership mean to the both of you? What has it looked like in terms of your positions as women of color in general, but also your very particular experiences as black women?
Pamela Anderson:
Well, this is Pamela. From my standpoint, I think leadership is about making connections, being a connector of things and people. So I think is Malcolm Gladwell from Tipping Point that talks about what's the role of a connector and why is that important? So I certainly think that as you're climbing up the ladder, being able to have diverse experiences with different types of people is really important. You can have a specialized skillset and be on a certain track, but you've got to be able to navigate in different environments. So I think by nature of black women, I mean, we are connectors, right? We're connected to our families. We're connected to our communities. We're connected to our church. We're connected to all of these things. So when we can bring that all together, and in terms of a leader being able to move a mission forward, all of those things become increasingly important to you, I think.
Pamela Anderson:
And I also think someplace like the Brandeis because of the liberal arts background, gives you that experience to be able to navigate different things based on different relationships. I mean, I remember when I was there, we actually had a swimming test, which I really couldn't pass. But because I knew somebody that was working in the gym, helped me to facilitate that. Or if I had a classmate, I'll never forget a woman who was a two years ahead, and she majored in economics. And when I was selecting that major, being able to use her, have her as a resource to be able to say to me, "Well, you probably don't want to take micro and macro at the same time in the same semester."
Pamela Anderson:
So this notion of being able to be connected to people and to be able to form real relationships that can help you get to areas that you might not be familiar with, or comfortable with, I think is really important. I mean, technical skill set will always serve you well, but you have to have the ability to build relationships, know how to use those relationships, and how to connect those relationships to whatever your overall goals are or objectives.
Taisha Sturdivant:
Totally agree with that take, Pamela. I think I would add that leadership to me really means rolling up your sleeves, doing the work alongside people. I have found in my experience that that really helps to demystify things when someone's not just telling you what to do as a leader, but is showing you and then making sure that you're on your way, before they delegate. I think it really boils down to being very candid, but kind obviously. I think when you're a leader, people really benefit from you being a straight shooter, like you saying, "This is what needs to be done. This is what you're doing well. These are the areas of improvement." And helping you get there.
Taisha Sturdivant:
I don't think anybody benefits from brushing those sort of things under the rug. And then broadly speaking, in terms of what leadership looks like to me at least, as a woman of color, I think it looks like recruiting more women of color and more people of color into- similar to mine, or any position that I can get access to where I know someone, being a connector. Not only recruiting them, but making sure that they're supported in the spaces that they're in, being brutally honest about my experiences in certain working environments, if they're looking to maybe they're seeking employment at a law firm that I'm at, or some other space, I'm always honest about the good, the bad and the ugly, so that people come in with their eyes wide open.
Taisha Sturdivant:
I think that that's being a good leader, I might not be able to resolve all of the issues as they are, but at least I can tell you about them so that you know what you're getting into when you come into a space. So that's what I think just broadly in terms of women of color. As a black woman, I think that leadership means living in my truth, no matter the costs, so that other people can flourish in spaces. And that's not an easy thing to do. I've certainly, at other previous places of employment, and even now, I'm the only black associate at my entire law firm, which is an international law firm. We have offices in Boston, New York, DC, Tel Aviv, and London and I'm the only black associate.
Taisha Sturdivant:
So I have to show up, and I have to speak up and I'm actually naturally an introvert. But I don't even find that I have the luxury of really being the sort of introvert that I am because there's so much work to be done. I feel like it's my responsibility to do that. That's what a leader does so that when we have a critical mass, I can just go and be a worker bee and put my head down and preserve my energy in a way that I want to, but I don't have that luxury yet. And in terms of living my truth in any particular space, I just wanted to share a little fun story with you all. So a friend of mine, commissioned an artist to create some art in my likeness. Long backstory on that. The person, the artist did not see a picture of me, had only heard about my life story and then design something.
Taisha Sturdivant:
So I sometimes loan this piece out to law firms in particular for our installations during Black History Month and other sort of celebrations. So I was at a new job and I had this painting, which I'll show you in a minute in my office, it was waiting to be picked up and carried over to somebody else's office, but people in my office thought that I was going to hang it in the office. I think this probably goes without saying that the artwork that we had in our office was largely like old white man, and it was beautiful artwork, but like, there were no women, there were no people of color, was a little blah. So people were totally freaked out I think that I brought in this very colorful piece of artwork.
Taisha Sturdivant:
But because I realized that people were so freaked out, and I had no intentions on hanging this thing in my office. I like neutral patterns. Of course, I hung it up, right? Because why not? So let me show you my afrocentric and you'll see I have other art, right, Black Lives Matter, that kind of stuff I totally put up. But this is the one that really killed them. Let me show you this here. If you can see that. But it's an afrocentric Wonder Woman who's hanging in this very sort of conservative office, did not go with the aesthetic of the office at all. But sometimes you have to push the envelope, so that when the next person comes, and they want to wear their hair however they want to wear it, and they want to hang up whenever they can, at least I've already sort of took it on the chin for them.
Taisha Sturdivant:
So I leave it there, but that's what leadership is. It's just sort of putting yourself out there so other people have, I think, better chances of surviving in some of these spaces. I'll stop there, because I've taken up a lot of time.
Ashlee Hypolite:
Wow, thank you for sharing that. And thank you for lightening the mood. That was great. And moving on and Tai, I think you've spoken to this a little bit. What is your approach to cultivating leaders for tomorrow? How can we ensure that more women and more people of color are considered for leadership roles. Pamela?
Pamela Anderson:
It's also, always have to be on the lookout. So I say that you make a concerted effort to stay connected to your community and connected to the people in the community. And then you're always looking out for opportunities to connect people. So there's a lot of different ways to go. I mean, certainly serving as a mentor to a younger person who might just be looking for an opportunity to explore, to develop some skill set. But the real deal is around sponsorship. I mean, recently they've been talking about Varun Jordan who just recently passed. But when you think about the number of people that he influenced based on his ability to be in the back rooms, when they're having certain conversations, a sponsor can actually help get you there, to actually put you in the door.
Pamela Anderson:
And we have to be able as Tai said, to be able to take that risk, to be able to lay that foundation to say, "I know this young person, or I know this black woman, and I know that she can do this job, and you should take a look at her." So I think it's incredibly important that we continue to be able to advocate for each other, and to be role models and to be assessable to each other to help them navigate the opportunities that come up.
Taisha Sturdivant:
Absolutely. Definitely sponsoring people is so important. I also think though, that I really try not to make assumptions about what people need to succeed. I think that's part of cultivating leaders of tomorrow is sort of taking each individual as an individual and saying, "What are your strengths as you see them? What do you think you need to work on? And how can I help you to get to where you need to be?" Not just saying, "Because you're a woman of color, I know, you need my help." Like for me to engage in respectability politics, which I just try not to buy into. So it's me meeting people where they are, and then helping to cultivate them in a way that suits them.
Taisha Sturdivant:
It's also, I think encouraging women to use their bullhorn as I like to say it. So go for any and every position that you want. I don't care what your credentials are really. I just don't care about that. I think you should apply because a lot of people who are not qualified apply, and what's the worst that can happen? They'll say no, whatever, right? Negotiate your salary. That's one thing that I work with a lot of young attorneys and law students on is how they might approach that discussion when they're going into the industry. Because it's no secret, there's so many studies about how women are paid less, and particularly women of color. So telling people not to be bashful about that, telling women of color not to be bashful about that is something that's so important to me. Telling women not to apologize so much and to just don't let anybody say...
Taisha Sturdivant:
I mean, don't say no for yourself, let other people say no, if it comes to it, just take advantage, seize every opportunity. That's what I try to do to make sure that people are in leadership roles, connect them, but then once they're connected, help them navigate the space in a way that suits them though. It's not cookie cutter. You don't have to do what I do. You don't have to be the one making a lot of noise, when you have diversity, equity and inclusion meetings. If that's not the way you operate, that's okay, let's powwow you know like behind the scenes, tell me your thoughts and I can be the one to vocalize them. That sort of thing. It's just there's power in numbers, and everybody has a different approach and appreciating that is how I think you cultivate leaders.
Liane Hypolite:
Thank you both for your continued insights. And as Ashlee mentioned, keep the questions coming. We already have a really great set that I'm so excited to get into next, we just have one final question in terms of already prepared. But can you both kind of take yourself back in time to when you were just graduating from Brandeis, about to embark on your careers. And just thinking specifically about those experiences in that transition into employment into continued education, what advice do you want to impart on current Brandeis students and recent graduates who are new to our alumni community, about how to find professions that feel meaningful, but are also sustaining, self-sustaining and sustainable.
Liane Hypolite:
Taisha is like, "I don't know if it's possible." We know it's a lot of work, particularly the labor on women of color in these spaces, but would love just like any advice that you have for soon to be a newly graduated Brandeisians?
Pamela Anderson:
It's so hard because I think in college you learn everything except sometimes about yourself. So you can get caught up in pursuing a career or thinking that you want to do something, because the perception is that you should want to do it. So I started off with the MBA simply because as compared to the JD, the MBA was a two year degree, and you can be in an environment and make the money faster. So without really even understanding what the degree was, what finance was all about, I chase that perception that was supposed to make me happy, right. But not until I was actually there dealing with it every day, I realized, man, this is just such a disconnect between my core values, who I really am and what I want to do.
Pamela Anderson:
So I would say, try to take some time to connect with yourself and really be honest with yourself, and pursue things that you can really feel connected to, as opposed to pursuing something because that's what people think that you should do, or that's what you think the reward will be or those kinds of things. Don't chase somebody else dream. You got to have some time to explore, if you have the flexibility and the opportunity, do some internships. Do some things where you had a good chance to actually check out a profession and see what it looks like, what it feels like, what it's like to go to this kind of environment every day, before locking yourself into something. And particularly before rushing back off to grad school and incurring a bunch of debt or a bunch of whatever, and not figuring out what you're going to actually do with it at the end.
Pamela Anderson:
I mean, that's kind of a wasted experience, I think. But yeah, my advice would be take some time, be honest with yourself, check in with the people who really know you, and just kind of explore different things as opposed to just going for whatever is perceived to be the tradition. I don't know how many people that Brandeis, everybody started off wanting to be pre-med, and by sophomore year, it was just like nobody left. So I mean, this is the notion that you're chasing somebody else's dream as opposed to try to find your own.
Taisha Sturdivant:
No, that's great. That's so funny. I know somebody... we won't get into it, but you know that's right about the pre-med track. I think and I don't know if this is a popular or unpopular opinion, but I always tell people not to chase joy honestly, and to chase solutions. And the two are not mutually exclusive, don't get me wrong, but for me, I personally just don't enjoy working like I'd much rather kick up my feet and not have to work a day in my life. So work does not make me happy necessarily, it's not my source of joy. But chasing solutions, I found a problem to which I want to find a solution and doing that work sustains me. Because personally, and at the end of the day, doing the work that I'm doing, I know that more affordable housing will be preserved, more affordable housing will be developed, fewer people hopefully will be discriminated against during the lease up, because I'm helping my clients create a tenant selection plan that doesn't discriminate against people.
Taisha Sturdivant:
I'm advising them on the American, on certain laws and regulations so that persons with disabilities can access their facilities. So knowing that I'm doing that work definitely makes me happy. When I go to a ribbon cutting for building, and I see the tenants whose housing was in jeopardy of being converted to market rate apartments, sort of being maintained as affordable in perpetuity. Of course, that brings me joy. But really, I was going after the solution, trying to fix the affordable housing crisis in our country and that has brought me to where I am. So if you just go after what makes you happy, I fear that when you don't find that happiness and fulfillment every day in the minutiae in the day to day work, that people can sort of become very discouraged and then it's unsustainable. So that's sort of my advice is to really find a solution that you want to help feel part of and just go after that. Yes, I'll leave at that.
Ashlee Hypolite:
Great. Thank you. And your advice applies to me so I very much appreciate it, not just graduates. So we're going to go into the Q&A portion, we have quite a few questions. So Helen asks, "You all are such a presence." That's true. "What would you say was the one pivotal moment you woke up to your planted powerful self? Was there one figure who mentored you and championed your success?"
Taisha Sturdivant:
That's a good question. It's been such a confluence of so many different things, but I'll try to maybe pinpoint one or two, sort of pivotal moments. I'm sure there's so many more, but the first one that comes to mind at least is I remember when I went into the Career Services Office at my law school, I went to Boston College Law School, and I had my hair out and a pretty big afro. And a black woman who worked in the office said to me, "I hope you plan on straightening your hair for interviews." And do I even need to say more about that, right? It was so off putting and I spoke in that moment and said that I disagreed and frankly, if I have to go to a place where I have to wear my hair in a style that's not my preference, right?
Taisha Sturdivant:
There's nothing wrong with straightening hair, but that's not my preference, I'm going to show up to the interview, the way I intend to show up to the job. And if somebody doesn't hire me on that basis, then that's probably not the place that I need to be. That was like an aha moment for me, where I have to just do me, show up as I am, and whatever comes to pass comes to pass, whether it's me getting a job or not getting a job, right? Nobody can be you, you're the best you, you can be. I don't plan on adopting everybody else's style and personality and appearance, because then what's the point of me having my own independent, very fun, crazy life? Like all of that has shaped me. So I have to show up with all of those experiences.
Taisha Sturdivant:
So that's one thing that was sort of like just one of those aha moments that made me check myself in terms of how I need to present. I think another one is, I mentor so many women in particular, and I often hear we all talk about like imposter syndrome and feeling like we don't deserve a seat at the table, so to speak, or like we're not supposed to be in places because of our background. And I've come to sort of shift that thinking in my mind. Of course, I personally still battle with that syndrome myself, and it's a every day is a new day to wake up and recommit to like being who I am. But something that helped me shift that in my mind was... and I'm trying to make this brief, I'm really sorry. But I was out in the community with a bunch of my colleagues, all of whom were white.
Taisha Sturdivant:
We were meeting with a real estate developer and a housing development like in the projects in Boston, because it's being torn down and rehabilitated. We were out there with, I don't know surveys and maps and just like looking like developers really, even though we're attorneys and a group of young teenagers walked up to the group in a very accusatory way basically saying, "What are you all doing here? You're just gentrifying the neighborhood." Not knowing that we were obviously affordable housing practitioners. And I spoke to the young people but it was in that moment where I realized like I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be. In fact, I'm probably better suited to have a discussion with these young people, better suited to appreciate some of the nuances of the work that I do.
Taisha Sturdivant:
So when you're tearing down affordable housing and the building is occupied, the residents have to be relocated often. And sometimes they have to be relocated for four or five years and I get to look at the relocation plans or personally I have relatives and friends and family that live in this housing stock in Boston and I'm always reading those relocation plans just as an example, thinking well how many times are you able to move them under this agreement, how close or how far they're going to be from their loved ones, from their job, from their kids school? Are there going to be buses provided? That's what I'm thinking about. I'm not just thinking about the logistics of getting them in and getting them out. And that's because my experiences inform the work that I do.
Taisha Sturdivant:
So I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be, and all of us when we show up to spaces everything that we've been through is so important to the work. So just know that you have great contributions and once you remember that, like once you remember it like nobody can tell you anything about where you're supposed to be. So those kind of moments for me are always like, "Aha, okay, I got this." So even if you don't have the lightbulb moments just remember what I said that you're supposed to be where you are, show up as your full self.
Pamela Anderson:
Yeah, I think for me after about eight to 10 years in the corporate banking world, I left to do an entrepreneurial venture to actually open up a retail houseware store. And that was surprising to a lot of people including my family as well but it was such an incredible experience to take something from the ground up, from a concept and just open it up. So that was empowering and one in knowing that I could make that choice, that I could walk away from something that everybody perceived to be such a great life and to say no, that I wanted to do something different. And it was an incredible experience for me, so it's really quite powerful. For a variety of reasons, the story didn't last but the experience always stayed with me and then I went into the nonprofit world and it's always interesting, even just recently a white person in the HR said that I was like a unicorn.
Pamela Anderson:
So I'm like I don't even know what that means. How do I interpret that? But this notion that you don't see allegedly a lot of black people in senior positions in nonprofits because of whatever reason, I don't know what their reasonings are. But I'm like as you said Tai, I'm exactly where I want to be. I'm concerned about global issues. I'm concerned about international affairs. This is the kind of work that I want to do, so I might look like a unicorn to you but this is kind of the path that I've been on for a while. So yeah, I think it's just coming to is coming to terms and finding your peace to be able to stand in your own way to say just this is who I am. I might not have the same expectations that you have about me and my limitations but I got to keep on living and doing what I want to do. So taking risk is really important I think.
Ashlee Hypolite:
Absolutely. So Cole would like to know, what would you find helpful from white allies and male allies?
Taisha Sturdivant:
I think that's a great question and I think it's one that has been circulating a lot more recently, at least in my experience in earlier times which I think is great. I think there are a number of things but I'll whittle them down. I think one is, you tend to occupy more spaces of more positions of power or spaces where I don't necessarily have access to. So conduct your own research, advocate for people, advocate for policies, advocate for equity, start a book club, do whatever you need to do so that other people who are like you are informed about experiences of women, experiences of women of color. And then try to set some things in motion that will make everybody's experiences at least equitable. I just can't understate how important that is. Recently, a mass email came out on this part of this group that I'm on where we were starting an optional book club.
Taisha Sturdivant:
And a white gentleman, replied all and said, "This is absolutely unacceptable. This book is like calling white people irredeemable," which is not what the book says at all. "I propose we do an alternative book club." And then he proceeded to put a link to a book that was incredibly offensive to the trans community in particular, but to anybody who is a decent human being. Then I watched my phone just like was for hours straight with a bunch of mail, like white allies in general calling me, asking me what they thought what the leadership's response should be to this person's email. And again, I'm happy to share in the work, but I think we all need to share in the burden. I think, I don't have all the magic answers.
Taisha Sturdivant:
My response was, "Well, tell them that the book club as optional, number one, and that that's not what reply all is for, and that he should talk to the people who created the book club." Like very basic things. Maybe we should get an outside professional facilitator for these conversations that they're going to be contentious. Like nothing that was so profound. That was advice that anybody could have come up with. And so my advice generally is just like sharing the work and do it because you think it's important, do it because you know it's important, not because you think it's going to appease somebody like me. It's important for all of us, so that's my take.
Pamela Anderson:
Yeah, I say, take the initiatives to learn on your own as well, because this notion that we continue to say, this is not who America really is, everybody is always so surprised. But the reality of it is, this is our history. So we have to have an open mind and to look at it and be able to be honest in that assessment. So stop the surprise, invest in some time and energy and do the work, research, learn and just be open. Don't be defensive about it, because in this day and age, we should be beyond that. And the only way we're going to be able to have real solutions or candid conversations is that we kind of come in at a, even keel with the same amount of historical knowledge and information and then we could really talk about solutions. But when we come from these different viewpoints that are totally off, it just creates a lot of tension and further misunderstanding. So do the work. Everybody's got to do the work. Everybody's got to do their own work, I think.
Ashlee Hypolite:
Hey, thank you, Pamela. And Pamela, this question is actually directed to you. So can you explain the significance of your backdrop, your Zoom backdrop and that quote?
Pamela Anderson:
Well, you see that we talked about lifting as we climb. And this is a quote that, in fact, Angela Davis use in an event that I actually found in the head of distinguished colleagues, Napoleon, helped me out today. But that's also a quote that's really is well connected to historically black colleges. I mean, that comes from this whole notion of institutions that were really helping to build a people. That's what we did. So it's really important to me, and I think it's really important to all of us to remember that, that we don't get here alone. We have a role to play. Thank you.
Taisha Sturdivant:
If I could just add to that just a little because that's a quote that I really love myself, because I just have found over time that there are a lot of people who wait until they feel like they have it all figured out before they sort of circle back and try to help other people. I certainly understand that you really have to contort yourself, if you really try to like visualize what it means to like lift as you climb. That's difficult. You have to be quite agile and flexible, and we don't all have it like that. Like I don't do yoga often, so it's hard. But I think it's necessary because I don't think that you have to be perfect, I don't think that you have to be in the C-suite, I don't think that you have to have it all figured out to help.
Taisha Sturdivant:
Literally, when I was in high school, I will talk to middle school and elementary school kids about high school. When I was in college, I would talk to all of those groups. Now that I'm an attorney, I talked to college kids, I talk to law students, you know, just about my experiences and what they might want to do, how they might get to where they are. So you don't have to be perfect to mentor. You should certainly, do what you can, where you are, when you are there as frequently as possible. So that's my take on that quote too.
Ashlee Hypolite:
Thank you. And this question was presented, and I felt like I had to ask it, because it's going to bring us back to the Brandeis days. So what was your greatest challenge at Brandeis? You guys can think for a little bit.
Taisha Sturdivant:
Yeah, I'll name two ones, a light hearted one, just coming up with the best culture X performance, like I just needed my crew, my dance crew to be the best that they was, that was part of it. I'm teasing, I say that in jest. I think I'm one of the more difficult things was coming to learn sort of the parallel histories in particular of the Jewish community, and the black community, the parallel histories that are there, and feeling like on occasion, there would be sort of Oppression Olympics, if you will. So I remember, for example, the senator for racial minority position was constantly challenged, in terms of not being a position that should exist by certain people. And I we had like a mock... not a mock trial, we had like a student led trial, where we had to demonstrate why that position was so important, like why it was important to have a racial minority serve the student body.
Taisha Sturdivant:
I was just so sort of thrown off by the fact that we had to even go through something like that. And I was so thrown off furthermore by the folks who are leading the charge and trying to eliminate that position. So it would be little things like that, that would be a reality check, where you think about the parallel histories of two groups and how they've worked so well together. But then you can sometimes see the breakdown. And for whatever reason, that was a little difficult for me to really sort of rationalize my time at Brandeis. It was a great time I learned so much, but whenever there was that kind of discord, where you felt like you should sort of be on one accord with a group of people or with some individuals and you realize how vastly different your experiences were and how that created a lot of tension. And that was just something that I had to manage during my time.
Pamela Anderson:
Yeah, I mean, for me Brandeis was just, it was challenging in so many ways. I mean, one, there weren't many people from the Middle West when I was there. So it was just adapting to a whole new kind of environment. There were all different kind of class structures, people within each age group or whatever. And then obviously, at times it's a very rigorous academic environment. And sometimes you could feel very alone and isolated in that kind of environment, because there was so much pressure to excel and to do well. But the relationships were great. I mean, I wish that we would have had more interactions, I think in terms of the larger community, but we were relatively close knit group. We had the AAAS Department there at Morton May, which was a lot of social activities for us, because we didn't get a chance to go off campus a lot. So it was a real community that we all lived on campus together and supported each other on getting through Brandeis.
Ashlee Hypolite:
Thank you for sharing. And this builds off of the last question, what would you say is most important aspect of focus on for white faculty in supporting students of color at Brandeis?
Pamela Anderson:
Again, I think it's about just being assessable. I mean, how do you support any other student? You try to meet them where they are. I don't think it's always coming from a deficit mentality, but it's again, engaging in relationship, trying to connect with people about what their concerns are and what they're interested in. But I just think being assessable, showing them that you do care that you are concerned. I mean, I know they have office hours, I know they have other opportunities to interact with students. But I would just say, be even about it, do it across board with everybody.
Taisha Sturdivant:
Yeah, and I mean, I actually echo that point. And I think in addition to that, try your hardest not to make assumptions though about like when you are making yourself accessible, or maybe going above to like maybe reach out to a student who is a little disengaged perhaps, or maybe there was a big event in the national media that you think may have impacted them. Just saying, "Hey, just checking in, is there anything you'd like to discuss? How are you doing?" I think that's great. I just caution folks to understand and contextualize the things that they teach. So I'm thinking of two incidents that happened while I was at Brandeis that really put a sour taste in my mouth. And again, I love my time at Brandeis, this is not like the overarching theme by any stretch of the imagination.
Taisha Sturdivant:
But on occasion, sort of the negative things that you experience can sometimes be a little more salient in your memory, unfortunately. And so I remember I was in one class, it was an ed class. And we were talking about the achievement gap between largely white suburban scholar, and their counterparts of color that largely lived in low income communities. And it was like an intro ed class and so one of my classmates raised her hand and said, "Well, why is that? Like, what accounts for the achievement gap?" And I remember one of the instructor saying, "Well, that's just the way it is." I mean, that's not accurate. First of all, there's a lot of history there that has contributed to that sort of achievement gap, and the fact that I just felt like it was a lazy and inappropriate answer.
Taisha Sturdivant:
And I said, this much in class and that actually prompted me to design my own a major in urban education for precisely that reason, because we all need to know that history, so that we can understand how to dismantle it, and how to close those gaps. So not taking shortcuts like that. Like just if it's a difficult answer, say it's a difficult answer. If it's a nuanced answer, say it's a nuanced answer. If you don't know, say you don't know. Don't just settle for that's just the way it is. Or I remember, we had breakout groups and this actually wasn't an instructor, but it was a TA. Again, we were talking about different policies. I think we were talking about like a broken windows policy or something like that. And a lot of people contributed to the discussion, I was quiet on that day, for whatever reason.
Taisha Sturdivant:
And the TA asked in front of the entire section, she said, "Oh, Taisha, can you give us the urban perspective on this issue?" Which I mean, it's just a curious thing to say, it's a weird question, first of all, but also, this person knew nothing about me. I'm being very open and candid with you all about my experiences, my lived experiences, how I grew up. But this is very early in the semester, I hadn't shared anything like that. So the assumption that because I'm a black woman, a black student, that I should be able to answer or give the urban perspective, whatever that even means, it's just wild to be.
Taisha Sturdivant:
So just being careful about how you engage students, would have been totally appropriate to say, "Taisha, you've been a little quiet, I'm wondering if I can invite you to share." Generally, and see what I have to share, if that's how you want to engage me. So just be responsible on the questions that you ask, be responsible when you're engaging people, but also do it in a way that's similar to the way you would engage any other student. That's it.
Ashlee Hypolite:
Great. Well, thank you so much for that. And we're just going to close out with one last question. So what thinkers do you follow or what would you recommend to read watch, if folks want to be a little bit more just informed of your field or your experiences?
Pamela Anderson:
Well, I'm a big fan of black nonfiction. I'm currently reading Caste, Isabel Wilkerson, which is a foundational book that I think that everyone should read. It really puts it in perspective in terms of this whole racial dynamic that we've got going on in this country right now. So that's my big one right now. I'm really enjoying that one. I really think that's an important book for people to embrace.
Taisha Sturdivant:
So I'm also reading that, I just started. I love that author, she's great. And her first book, The Warmth of Other suns, that's like my all time favorite. So I would recommend the Warmth of Other Suns and Caste just based on what I've already heard, but I haven't delved in fully myself yet. And another book that I think is just really brilliant is The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein. And that shares a lot about the history of redlining in our country. And it really sort of tells you about sort of the history of housing in our country, but also how that obviously contributes to generational wealth. So there was a study recently just in Boston as an example, where it talked about the median net worth of different racial groups, and black folks in Boston, have on our a median net worth of $8, as compared to white families in Boston that make well over have a media network of something like, I don't know, $225,000 to $8.
Taisha Sturdivant:
It's incredible. If you look at studies about life expectancy, you can look at zip codes and see how many years are shaved off of people's lives just based on their zip code. So I think The Color of Law sort of gives a really nice foundation with regard to how some of those things came to be because it's not just the way it is. Right? Just going back to that earlier point.
Ashlee Hypolite:
Right. Thank you all for joining. Liane, do you want to close this out?
Liane Hypolite:
Well, I was actually just going to also thank you both and invite Amy back to close our session.
Amy Cohen:
I don't know if anyone can hear me. Can you hear me?
Liane Hypolite:
Yeah.
Taisha Sturdivant:
Yes.
Liane Hypolite:
We can.
Amy Cohen:
Okay, you may not be able to... Okay, there we go. You cannot start your video because the host has disabled it. Okay. Well, regardless, thank you, Liane, Ashlee, Taisha and Pamela for this amazing event tonight. And thank you all for attending. I wanted to highlight several events that are upcoming. The Alumni of Color Network is hosting its final yoga session tomorrow at 4pm, and it's not too late to register. As well as an event on April 26 called Parent Like It Matters which is very similar to Parent Like You Mean It, but Parent Like It Matters. And look out on your social media and your email for more information about that event.
Amy Cohen:
In addition to Brandeis Women's Network will have its book club on April 6, its Women in Law event on April 20th. Taisha, I hope we'll see you there and a discussion with Hadassah Lieberman on April 28, about her new memoir. So again, I encourage you to check your social media for more details. Thank you, thank you, thank you to all our panelists and moderators and everyone for attending. Be safe, be well and we look forward to seeing you virtually soon and in-person in the fall. Thank you.