Arnon Shorr:
Welcome to the first panel discussion in our series, Showbiz@Deis. My name is Arnon Shorr. I'm a filmmaker, a screenwriter, and an author. One of the authorial hats that I wear is a graphic novelist recently. So I'm really excited to be talking with several really accomplished and interesting people who are in the graphic novel and comic book world. So just a little bit of background about this series and what we're doing and who we are and all that before we dive in. This is the first installment in a series that I'm putting together with Michelle Mueller.
Arnon Shorr:
We are doing this in conjunction with the Brandeis Arts Network, and the series is a bunch of panel discussions with professionals in the entertainment world, alumni of Brandeis University who have excelled in various specific fields in film and television and theater and graphic novels, et cetera. Mark your calendars while you can, February 23rd is our next installment where we will be speaking with some executives in film and television. We've got some really interesting people lined up. You'll see emails about that as the weeks get closer. That's February 23rd, same time, 4:00 in the West, 7:00 in the East.
Arnon Shorr:
So as I mentioned, this is being put together under the auspices of the Brandeis Arts Network. I apologize for reading off of a page. There's some stuff here I want to make sure I get right. The Brandeis Arts Network is a group exclusive to Brandeis undergraduate and graduate alumni that enables anyone involved in the arts, both professionals and enthusiasts alike to engage, share, and experience the vast array of artistic endeavors, that fellow Brandeisians on campus across the country and abroad.
Arnon Shorr:
The Brandeis Arts Network also encompasses and supports the efforts of the Performing Arts Network and the Brandeis Alumni in Film and Television. Now all of these groups, Brandeis Arts Network, Performing Arts Network, and Brandeis Alumni in Film and Television are active on Facebook. So feel free to check them out there, check us out there. Now before we dive in, we do have a couple of little survey questions to find out a little bit more about who's watching, and who we're talking to here.
Arnon Shorr:
So if Courtney we'll post the first of those, there you go. Just you'll see it pop up on the screen. Tell us a little bit about why you're here so we can tailor our responses a little bit to who you are and what might interest you. It looks like we've got a bunch of people who are interested in growing careers and graphic novels and comics, which is awesome. A few people who are looking to start careers in comics and graphic novels. In a few seconds, I'll let this run for a full minute and then we'll end the poll. Next question in the series. Just a little bit about the procedure for today.
Arnon Shorr:
We've got four honorees... Not honorees. Four panelists and we'll introduce them shortly. I will ask them a few questions and we've got the second question on the poll up right now. I'm going to ask them a few questions not too many. My goal is to try to spark some conversation between these folks. They're all very interesting and opinionated people. So let's see if we can get them all opining at each other to our benefit. At the end, we are going to have a Q&A. So if you have questions for our panelists or for me, but they're more interesting.
Arnon Shorr:
You can post those questions in the chat. Michelle Miller is going to be moderating those questions and following along and making sure that if there are a bunch of people asking the same question that it only gets asked once things like that. That's going to be at the very end, the last 10, 15 minutes we'll do Q&A. Looks like we are talking mostly to Brandeis alumni or current students. We've got some Brandeis faculty or staff, which is really exciting. I'm honored to have you guys here. And some family and friends too, which is great. I'm going to end the poll right now. There we go. We see the results.
Arnon Shorr:
I think everybody can see the results now. All right. So we're talking to Brandeis alumni and a bunch of people looking to begin careers or advance their careers in comics and graphic novels. Let's move forward with our panelists. We are right on time. Hi. Our panelists are in no particular order, David Pepose, Jodi Wynne, Jonathan Lang and Elliot S Maggin. Why don't we have you guys introduce yourselves, let's start with Elliott and go chronologically from there. Elliot, who are you? What do you do? What have you done?
Elliot Maggin:
I was a member of the Class of 1972, I still am. We were about the first class who were younger than the university. When I was a junior at Brandeis, I sold a term paper to DC Comics. It was a Green Arrow story. I used to deviate from assignments a lot but I got a B+ on it and I thought I deserved an A, so I sent it to the publisher at DC and he gave it to the editor of Superman, and he gave it to the artist of Green Arrow and he came back the next morning and said, "If you buy this, I'll draw it." So that's how I got in. That was good for 30 years. I wrote Superman for 15 of those years and pretty much stayed in the field because I like Superman. Wrote a bunch od graphic novels, writing some novels now. Wrote my first book in 1979. It was a tie in with the first Superman movie ever. I wrote two best sellers when I was in my twenties. I've been trying to duplicate that trick ever since. So I'll let you know.
Arnon Shorr:
Well, between the A that you wanted on the term paper, the B that you got the D and the C in DC comics, you almost ran the gamut.
Elliot Maggin:
Yeah. I got a good start on that.
Arnon Shorr:
Fantastic. Thank you, Elliot. All right, let's see. Who's next, Jonathan?
Jonathan Lang:
Hi, I'm Jonathan Lang. I graduated from the Class of '98 and my background was in film and TV. And I studied with Professor Doherty. I started in comics as an interloper. I didn't really grow up reading comics. My comics were MAD Magazine predominantly in the office. You have Spider-Man. And when I turned 25, I read a book called Black Hole, which opened up with the medium, what was possible with the medium. And from there, once I saw what was possible, I became very, very interested, borderline obsessed with what could happen still with an eye towards film and TV. And I began my career actually developing a failed screenplay into what became a very successful comic, which was my first comic feeding ground.
Jonathan Lang:
And the success I had was unusual because it was the first book that I had written and it ended up getting optioned by Ed Pressman in 2015, from there, I wrote another book for Boom Plunder. And most recently I had a book about Meyer Lansky that came out called Meyer through Humanoids. I also had the very exciting thing of getting to create a Garbage Pail Kids for IDW, and I had some other assignments with Heavy Metal, and Black Mask. So I've run the gamut and now I'm living in Los Angeles and while still working in comics. So I've transitioned into working in animation as well.
Arnon Shorr:
Awesome. Thank you, Jonathan. Jodi, tell us a bit.
Jodi Wynne:
Hi, I'm Jodi Wynne. I'm Class of 2000. I actually studied sociology and anthropology. I went on to get an architecture degree and I've used none of them. Obviously, ended up in comics by just luck or serendipity or whatever you call it and because I had a background in art was able to apply those skills and done a little bit of everything. I've been an artist assistant. I've modeled for characters. I built 3D models, I colored, and now my main gig is lettering. And I started doing that with the series Lazarus and I've loved it. Right now I'm working on Edge World over at ComiXology. I'm working on the Old Guard. We're doing a little spinoff for that and just finished up the last volume of Black Magic and we're on break for that. I love it. I'm excited to be here. Thanks.
Arnon Shorr:
Thank you. And David?
David Pepose:
Hi, I'm David Pepose. I'm the Ringo Award nominated writer of books like Spencer & Locke, and Going to the Chapel over at Action Lab. The Oz, which just wrapped up its first campaign on Kickstarter in the fall. My new book Scout's Honor over at Aftershock Comics that just came out this month. I'm class of 2008. I got my start as a DC Comics intern. I worked on books like Batman and Green lantern and the Justice League before serving over a decade as the reviews editor at the comic industry news site Newsarama. I'm super thrilled to be here and excited to get to talk with my fellow alums about the magic of comics.
Arnon Shorr:
Thank you. Awesome. All right. So you've all given a little bit of a capsule of where you started from how you broke in. I love the failure to success stories from Elliot and Jonathan. I do have a question. I want to start with a career oriented question. There's this idea I've certainly encountered it in the film industry, that once you get paid for work, you are a professional. That's the line when you're working for free and not getting paid. You're not a professional yet. Once you get paid, you're a pro. Some of you started to answer this a little bit. So I want to ask this in two parts and so if you've already answered one part, you can answer the next one.
Arnon Shorr:
How did you become a professional? And the second part, which I think is very important is, is that door, the door that you opened or walked through or muscled through or whatever it is. Is that door still open today? The industries have evolved and changed over the years and very quickly in recent years. Can people do what you did today? Are those options still open or are there other options that people should pursue to try to break into the industry in various ways? Elliot, you want to take it away?
Elliot Maggin:
Sure. I think the answer is no to that last part. The job of a comic book editor has apparently changed. I was an editor for two years. I hated the job and at the time it was evolving into more of a team effort than an actual piece of work that in involved initiative. I got in because my editor liked my script. It came out of nowhere and he wrote me a letter that basically opened up the kingdom for me and you can't do that anymore. Editors can't do that. The editors have to go through channels in order for a writer to get into the field or an artist. It's generally got to show work outside the field for which he was paid more than he'll ever get as a comic book artist. So I keep being told once somebody comes up with a peculiar way of getting into the business the door closes. So that's apparently what happened with me.
Arnon Shorr:
Someone wants to jump in. David?
Jonathan Lang:
So, Arnon I was going to say that it's not being paid to be a professional. I think getting paid again is actually being a professional. In my personal experience, even though I have a number of books, I'm still breaking into the comics industry. It's a tough thing to say, but you really are only as good as your last page. And really, I think the key to breaking in is being an idea machine. If you have one idea, you're not going to be a pro, you need to consistently generate ideas. You need to have the back pocket idea and an idea beyond that, because when you have an editor's ear or an artist's ear, or anyone's ear, you need to have a slew of ideas and constantly be generating material.
Arnon Shorr:
So I have a question for Jodi to actually bounce on what Jonathan just said. Jodi A lot of the work that you do in particular thinking about lettering, you're not coming up with new ideas for new comics. You're coming in at a different point in the process at different points in the game. So what does breaking in and staying and look like for you where you don't necessarily have what Jonathan's talking about, the opportunity to create.Opportunities for yourself.
Jodi Wynne:
I would just say, how I broke in was... I didn't try to, so I don't even know how to explain that. I literally responded to a craigslist posting of an artist Michael Ark at the time was working on Daredevil and before he started using computer refs was using live models. So I was modeling for characters Dakota North, and White Tiger and such.
Jodi Wynne:
Very quickly when he looked at my resume, he said, "Wow, you can do a little bit more than this." So I started building 3D models, working different things, page layouts, Photoshop. So I don't know how you break in. It just happened for me. Like Jonathan was saying, I wasn't really even in comics, I didn't even know who I was working for at the time. I was working with all these amazing people.
Jodi Wynne:
I had no idea who they were. So I feel blessed for that. I really do. As far as staying in though, I think it's just like any other job. You work your butt off and you do a great job. You're reliable, you turn your work in on time. You're just a good person that people want to work with and I think that's what has been my outlook of keeping on going. I tend to get asked to go on other projects with the same people. So just having a good workout, good work ethic and having fun.
Arnon Shorr:
Sounds good. David, you had a bit more of a... You started with an internship, right?
David Pepose:
Yeah. I was going to say, you all get paid around here.
Jodi Wynne:
Don't not get paid. Never not get paid.
David Pepose:
The thing that I would say is I think my time as an intern was certainly very important and certainly many times critic was really important. But I think I subscribed to the Steven Pressfield theory of being a comics professional. And that the only difference between you being an aspiring professional and being a comics creator is do you make a comic? Now sometimes that can mean that you self-publish your comics.
David Pepose:
Sometimes that means you go on Kickstarter. Sometimes that means you pitch it to any number of the independent publishers or a traditional book market. I think really the only line in the sand is have you made a comic, and then keep making comics. There are plenty of people who make a great living self-publishing and crowdfunding, and going the independent route.
David Pepose:
And then there are people who do work at publishers like Aftershock or Boom, or Bark Mask or Vaults just to name a few. And then you get to what they call the Big Three Marvel DC Image Comics. I feel like for me, my internship was certainly a lot of failure before it was a success. I was panning on the doors at DC starting my sophomore year. And they did not actually let me in as an intern until about two weeks before I graduated.
Arnon Shorr:
What year was is?
David Pepose:
David Pepose:
You've learned very quickly that you got to be grinding and pushing yourself out there over and over and over again and not taking rejection personally. And I feel like that experience has really made me a better comics creator. Just knowing that while you may think that your career is like playing chess more often than not, it's actually like playing a game of pinball. The only control you have is how often you hit the bumpers. And so you just want to keep hitting those bumpers as often as you can.
Jonathan Lang:
Can I just quickly add one thing.
Arnon Shorr:
Please.
Jonathan Lang:
One thing I can say that's unique about comics I think more so than any other art is the bar for connecting to a creator is lower than I think any other medium. And I say that as a good thing, because the accessibility that you have in terms of reaching out to those who work in the field, or are currently working in the field, there are so many good people in comics.
Jonathan Lang:
And I think a lot of people... It's such a shame that conventions are not around right now because it's so important to go and show up at the party and support people whose work you like. And by that, I don't mean simply buying the book but talking to these people, because the thing you need to remember is we've all been on the other side of the table. We've all been fans and the line is so thin between creator and fan. It's so exciting and I think that's one of the things I personally love about comics.
Arnon Shorr:
I want to roll into the next question, move a little bit from career to craft and specifically talk about creativity and productivity. I ask you again a two part question. You can answer one part or both. When you're up against the deadline, and this is for those of you who've gotten stuff done for companies, for other people, when you're up against the deadline, how do you stay creative? And the other side of that is when the project is your own, nobody's telling you when it's due, how do you stay productive?
Elliot Maggin:
So it's the old... Who was it? Mark Twain who said... No, I think it was Thomas Edison. Inspiration is 2% and perspiration is 98%. Something like that. When I wrote my first story, it took me a month or so and I was mostly sitting in the student center pumping stuff out on a illegal pad. After that, gradually over the next year, it got to a point where I was turning out a story a week.
Elliot Maggin:
And that became... It started feeling mechanical and people kept telling me I was doing better all the time and I just don't get it because I have to get to page 24. It's very important. But I think when you get used to the process, creativity is second nature. It's like the kids who work at Saturday Night Live, when they do four shows in a row, the fourth show is a piece of cake, but after coming off a break of two weeks or three weeks it takes a lot to get grinding. Once you're grinding, you're on a roll.
David Pepose:
I know for me anyway, when I'm dealing with deadlines for other people, usually the thing that gets me across the finish line is just panic because you don't want to mess this up. You don't want to tick off your editor. You know, this has to get done in this period of time. And so knowing this is my deadline and nothing goes past this. And so you better just make the thing work. Whereas for my own projects, it's just spite.
David Pepose:
At least in my case, a lot of my ideas are very far left field, and so a lot of people when I say a concept like my breakup books, Spencer & Locke was what if Calvin and Hobbes grew up in Sin City. A lot of people were like, "What?" And so that pushback just drove me further because it was this I'll show you mentality. But ultimately at least in my experience, if I can't find an idea that I'm not like actively dreaming about all the time, that gets burrowed into my brain. At least our creator owned work.
David Pepose:
It often winds up not being worth the time. We only get a limited amount of time on this planet and I only have a limited amount of books in me. So I want to make sure that that's the advantage I have, do we create our own books. I can just do the books that I like and maybe that's self-indulgent, but that's the beauty of comics. Is why not put out just stuff you're interested in. So that's usually how I try to stay productive, emphasis on trying.
Jonathan Lang:
For me personally, I think the question often is what am I interested in? And oftentimes whether it be for my first book, I was really thinking a lot about the problems at the border. And my goal at that time was how can I put a face to people who are criminalized? How can I create that as my hero? It's really about, I think staying open to ideas at some level and allowing them to not trying to control them, but allowing connections to form very organically.
Jonathan Lang:
It requires an act of faith. And I think it's one of these things when you've done it, you know the idea will form, but you just have to trust that these connections are going to happen. So to go back to Elliot what you said, writing is a muscle and those gaps it does weaken, but when you get into... I think being inactive is as important as being active. And I think that people, it's part of the creative process is not doing. And I think that's a really important thing to think about.
Elliot Maggin:
I'm going to think about that.
Jodi Wynne:
For me, I feel like most of my creative work happens on the front-end before I even start working. So collaborating with my team members when we first start a project, really digging into what they want, what stylistically what they want and doing sample pages, looking at tons of fonts, looking at past work, things like that. So I do spend a lot of time on the front-end getting that established because when it is go time, because I'm at the end of the line and a deadline was yesterday. It's like, we going to go and it is hard to be creative.
Jodi Wynne:
So I try to put a lot of that thought in the beginning of the project when we're working all the kinks out. You get these moments, but lettering. There's been one book where I did a ton of sound effects and that was probably as creative as I could get, although getting to work on Wonder Woman, we had some creative things we worked through. And again though, for me, it's a very collaborative process. A lot of times with the writer or the artist. Get it done though.
Arnon Shorr:
For sure.
Jodi Wynne:
Creativity takes a back seat sometimes.
Arnon Shorr:
Jodi, I'd like to hop on what you just said about collaboration. To segue into the next question that I have, which is about not so much the craft of it, but the art of the work that you and that all the panelists do. Among our panelists here, we have people who originate and people who contribute to other people's original concepts. Either creating the worlds or contributing to worlds and characters that already exist. For each of you, I'd love to hear a bit more about what you love about the specific type of work that you do, whether it's contributing or originating. And what are the challenges, what are your frustrations with? We can start with Jodi because reverse order a little bit.
Jodi Wynne:
Sure. The thing I love about my work is that it's very... It's like the unsung hero. The less you notice my work, the better it's been done. My work is to stay out of the way. I don't ever want to do anything flashy that's going to take over the... I don't want to call attention to what I'm doing. What I want to do is I want to make the story shine. I want it to read well, I want there to be no hiccups. So when you go from panel the panel, page to page, it's going to be smooth. And I love that.
Jodi Wynne:
I love when I see writers read the final product and they go, "Wow, it's all come together." And it's reading perfectly, it's exactly the pacing, everything. So it's a lot of nuances and it's a lot of staying out of the way and just letting the writer and the artist shine. I'm fine with that. I'm a very shy, introverted person. So I've fallen into that role very well. I know there's letters who do these crazy things, but for me less is more. Readability and just really being a team player is what it's about for me.
Elliot Maggin:
Letterers are getting credit on the movies now. I mean,
Arnon Shorr:
Wow.
Jodi Wynne:
I Haven't gotten a credit but I'll take the royalties and all that, that's fine with me. Yeah.
Elliot Maggin:
Good lettered, first episodes of Wonder Woman or Justice League, they're getting credited creators.
Jodi Wynne:
Yeah. I've been very fortunate the people I-
Elliot Maggin:
I really get pissed with that.
Jodi Wynne:
No, don't be. No, you deserve some credit. Come on. No
Elliot Maggin:
You know what, I'm Superman versus Batman. I went to see it with this woman I know who is the daughter of Jerry Siegel who created the character and at some point I can't remember the name of the talk show host who got booted. He's interviewing somebody and looks at the camera, very pregnant stare and says, "Must there be a Superman?" You remember that scene? I don't know nobody-
Jodi Wynne:
Yeah.
Elliot Maggin:
Okay. Well, my first Superman story was called Must There Be A Superman. It's a classic story. I mean, everybody quotes it, everybody refers to it. And this guy looks at the camera and quotes the name of my story. It was an inside joke but I never got accredited at the end of the damn movie. Makes me crazy. Here I am being crazy, sorry.
Arnon Shorr:
Oh, I think it speaks to the complexity of the collaborations in comics.
Elliot Maggin:
Yeah, right.
Arnon Shorr:
Especially when the character has such a long life and so many contributors over decades.
David Pepose:
Especially-
Jonathan Lang:
In terms of- Go ahead. I'm sorry, David.
David Pepose:
I was just going to say, especially now I think the comics process it's become very atomized. Both between the different silos at the big two versus all the independent publishers and the creator owned publishers. And so as a result, I feel we're seeing a bit of a sea change in the way that the whole creative team is being credited now on books.
David Pepose:
In part, because it used to be years ago that, yeah it was the Marvel characters and it was the DC characters and then you'd have the romance or the Western books or the Lord Had horror, the EC Comics. Whereas now it's all these teams feel very atomized and in a way, that's I think a good thing because you are seeing, for example, you're seeing more credit being given to not just the writer and the artist but you're seeing the colorists and the letters. And now we're even seeing flatters and production artists and designers getting their just credit.
David Pepose:
And I think it speaks a lot to the shifting expectations of comics. You look at for example, something like a Chris Claremont book for the seventies whereas now there's this expectation to be a hyper sophisticated, hyper cinematic, extremely detailed and it almost is a modern miracle that people are able to get comics out on a monthly basis, let alone a bimonthly like Jody was doing on Wonder Woman.
Jodi Wynne:
That was a nightmare. Nightmare.
Elliot Maggin:
There'll be meetings in between, you got to go to meetings.
David Pepose:
Yeah. It's a lot. It's trying to maneuver an 18 Wheeler through the eye of a needle sometimes and I know that, especially, that's just talking about creator owned books, then when you have to talk about different corporate dictates when it comes to certain characters for example, just saying, Wonder Woman. She just had a movie that came out and figuring out, "Okay, what has to be done? She has this villain in this movie, we should probably do something with this villain in the comics." It's a huge challenge and I feel for me, the thing that I love most about writing comics and the thing that perhaps frustrates me the most, it's two sides of the same coin.
David Pepose:
I love writing stuff and then getting rewarded for it by seeing amazing artwork. And the thing that I always grapple with is just being patient about it. Both in terms of my own speed and that of my collaborators, I have it easy. If I really put pedal metal, I could write five scripts in a month whereas any artist I'm working with, if they're lucky might be able to do two projects at once. I know it's physical labor and I know that they're spending five, 10 times the amount of time that I am.
David Pepose:
And so that's the thing I always remind myself is that, "I've got scripts that are backlogs that aren't drawn yet." And just reminding myself that it will be worth the wait and thinking about it from the reader experience instead of my own that they won't care if it took a year for this book to get made if they like the book and they like the book and they come back for more then it's mission accomplished as far as I'm concerned.
Elliot Maggin:
Do you know who is drawing the book before you write it now, Dave?
David Pepose:
Who?
Elliot Maggin:
Do you know who is drawing the book when you're writing the script?
David Pepose:
Oh, sorry. It depends on the project. For a lot of my creator owned work, I've selected my own artists but my recent book, Scout's Honor, I was working with former Marvel editors on that book. And so I wrote that not having, we didn't even have an artist attached. When I pitched the outline and I wrote the first issue, I think I had started writing issue two, or maybe even three by the time we had an artist on board. And so there was a lot of reverse engineering once we got to the lettering stage, in fact.
David Pepose:
To talk about it cinematically, they talk about the movie you write, the movie you shoot, the movie you edit. I think in comics, it's the comic you write, the comic that's drawn and the comics as it's lettered. And so for me, that was a big learning curve was saying, "Okay, I wrote this script in such a way but now I have an artist with a very individual style who's tackled it." Figuring out, "Oh, maybe I got to cut some of this dialogue. Maybe I have to rewrite it to fit the artwork."
Jodi Wynne:
Please do.
David Pepose:
I really over overdo it in that I put all my pages down in Photoshop and actually try to do a rough lettering pass on my own.
Jodi Wynne:
Wow.
David Pepose:
Just to make sure that I'm not with-
Jodi Wynne:
So I've worked with artists who do that, never writers. That's interesting, yeah.
David Pepose:
It's very stressful but I think at the end of the day for me, it's so I don't kill my letters like Jody but also to make sure that I'm not overcrowding the artwork. And it's a really, it's a tough needle to thread. I mean, for every person you've got, who's very terse you've got a Brian Bendis or Chris Claremont who it's very dialogue heavy and I think that's an important part of every comic writers voice is figuring out how much dialogue is enough or too much.
Elliot Maggin:
You ever seen Alan Moore script.
David Pepose:
Yeah. They're like telephone books, right?
Elliot Maggin:
Yeah. I mean, they're mostly seen descriptions. It just goes on and on. Put this leaf in this position in that tree, that sort of thing.
David Pepose:
Yeah.
Jonathan Lang:
I mean, the other thing that David was alluding to, if I may, is that the writer at some level has to wear multiple hats. And when you are launching a project, the first person you need to sell is an artist, it is very rare when you break into the business that you will be paired. You need to arrive with a creative team. Now, so the first person you're going to sell is the artist and you must be open if you are able to work with a brilliant artist to your story changing and the look of the book changing.
Jonathan Lang:
And not only be open to it, you must be excited about that because essentially this is your collaborator. And if I may, the writer is the screenwriter and producer. The director of the film is the artist. The artist brings the story to life and they are the person who tells the story. And I have argued with writers about this and some people have very strong opinions about this, but I believe in every project I've worked on, they've breathed life into my script and taking it in interesting directions.
Arnon Shorr:
So to pick up on that, very conveniently leads into my next question which is about where the art goes after you've created it. Certainly if you write and then an artist illustrates and that becomes a whole new interpretation but we are operating in a world now where an idea for a comic book doesn't end when the comic book ends. We have adaptations to film to TV, web series, new media, gosh, all sorts of options out there, podcasts. So my question about this is, when you're working how aware are you of the potential, the adaptation potential of the thing you're working on creating and does that awareness change or affect what you choose to work on or how you choose to work on it?
Jonathan Lang:
I will say this, if you are not aware of it, you are not going to be able to sell many, many comic book companies because essentially for some of them, I can't say all of them, but many companies that are tied to larger companies, view comics as low stakes IP development. And what essentially that means is they're playing roulette and they're developing multiple properties and one of these properties are going to hit.
Jonathan Lang:
So for them, and this is actually very important, If you're creating IP, it doesn't necessarily mean that you will be breaking into film and TV. What it may mean is that your idea is breaking into film or TV. And I think that's a very important thing to recognize. So in thinking about this, the question you should always ask yourself is not necessarily, how am I going to tell this story? But why do I want to tell this story in comics? What are my expectations once I've told this story that it's lived through this medium? Because it's an incredible medium but by no means is it a railroad into Hollywood. And I think that's really important to think about.
David Pepose:
Yeah. As somebody who's had a couple of options before that's optioning is literally it's the very first baby step of anything. A lot of independent congress-
Elliot Maggin:
Is strip mining the sub aesthetic?
David Pepose:
Yeah, totally. Yeah. And so the thing that I always try to encourage people because we all live in California or are all from California, all the panelists. At least once a quarter, I get a screenwriter asking me, "I have this script that's not getting traction. I'd like to make it into a comic." And I usually tell them, "Do you have nine months and $15,000?" And usually they say, "Oh." Because like Jonathan was saying, there are some publishers that, yeah, they are very focused on the IP.
David Pepose:
This is the quickest way to get a proof of concept going but I have found personally for me, you got to be Zen about it. You need to write a comic to make a comic and you need to write it in the best possible way as a comic. And I find that there are so many, you can see every so often there's a book that you're like, "Mm-mm (negative) that feels a little like a Hollywood pitch document." Whereas I have found through my own experience, the thing that really gets people in Hollywood excited is just people liking your book.
David Pepose:
And so I feel a good word of mouth, good buzz, that will go a lot further than you'd think. And so, comics as a medium is very... They have some things in common with film and television, of course, especially the way that they are written now. But I really encourage people to look at it as something other than storyboarding. There is a rhythm and a flow and a lot of different artistic choices that go into comics and if trying to look at it as a springboard, just devalues the medium, the best way...
David Pepose:
So you got to be Zen about it. If you really want your stuff to get made into a different medium or to have a wider audience, that's great, that's extra income coming in, that's extra people who are getting to read the book, but if your first priority isn't, "How am I going to make a good comic?" Then you probably won't get to do take all these other extra steps in the multimedia.
Elliot Maggin:
So you're implying that everybody who's doing comics these days is doing it in order to sell a screenplay?
David Pepose:
No, I mean, I should clarify it because look, I didn't get into comics to sell screenplays. I'm a third generation comics reader, president of the Brandeis comic book clubs. So I come by and-
Elliot Maggin:
I used to be in the Brandeis comic book club.
Jodi Wynne:
But it is happening.
David Pepose:
It is happening.
Jodi Wynne:
I mean every book I work on is either optioned or in the process or has been made into something.
David Pepose:
I might offer that it's actually a little bit more of the chicken before the egg in this case. I think that's become just a popular pipeline for Hollywood. That Hollywood is constantly looking at the comics industry for new IP versus the other way.
Jodi Wynne:
Because we have good stuff.
David Pepose:
It's not to say that there aren't people who that's their game plan but what I was trying to put out there is, focus on making a comic. Making a good comic should be an end into of itself. And if anything else comes out of it, great, it's more money to make more comics. But I always, my hackles go up a little when I hear of people implying that comics are some springboard to some other medium because I love comics. I grew up with this.And the only way that we're going to keep this industry going is if we keep leaving it all out in the field for the comics themselves.
Arnon Shorr:
I actually have the opposite experience from all of this. In that I made a short film that did well enough and was successful enough that it went from film to graphic novel except in some cross-marketing areas doesn't usually happen. So I think it's going to be interesting to see how this pot gets stirred because it... I'm probably an outlier, but if that thing happens more there's going to be more dialogue between the media. Speaking of dialogue, it is time to open things up a little bit, and see if our audience has questions. So Michelle, if you would like to let us know what the top questions are? What are people asking? What do people want to know?
Michelle Miller:
Yeah, please send me some more. I have a couple already. I also want to plug Arnon thing that he was telling that was adapted into a graphic novel is a film about Jewish pirates and we did an event last summer that's available in a Brandeis website. Just want to plug it in it's a great film. We screened the film, we talked about it. So I just wanted to say that. Wonderful, thank you guys for your questions. I'm going to start off with Arun's question. So he wanted to hear more about the process of adapting a failed screenplay into a comic and the rewriting as well as collaboration that comes with other artists. If anyone wants to touch on it, it's very similar to what we're talking about so if you can start with that.
Jonathan Lang:
So I can speak about my first project. And I think the real process in that instance was trying to find essentially how to tell this story so it could only exist as a comic. Even though the idea began as a screenplay, I was very excited about the possibility of the medium down to... You have to think about if you're telling a story as a book, you really need to think about the possibilities of what that book can do from the moment you pick up that book and get very excited about that. You have to again be...
Jonathan Lang:
And I cannot stress enough how important finding an artist is as your collaborator if you're going to break into the medium, you develop a visual language with them which becomes a shorthand that allows you to essentially make it something new. If you're going to do that, you have to be excited that this is something different. And it's okay I think that comics are new to you. I think it's okay to make that jump. But just be honest about it, be a student, be humble. The people will be there to school you, but just be honest and open and humble and you can do it, really.
David Pepose:
There's a lot of great resources in terms of learning how to write comics. There are books like, Peter David's Writing for Comics, Brian Bendis did-
Arnon Shorr:
I love that one.
David Pepose:
Words for Pictures. Just to name a few, they are on my bookshelf right now.
Jonathan Lang:
The DC way is a great one.
David Pepose:
Yeah that's another great one.
Jonathan Lang:
I can't believe he recently passed away. I can't believe I forgot the editor.
Jonathan Lang:
No, no, no, no, no. It was Danny O'Neil.
Arnon Shorr:
Danny. Oh yeah. My bookshelf upstairs.
Jonathan Lang:
It's a great book.
David Pepose:
But there are other things like other classes like Comics Experience, those are online classes that teach just about every different part of the comics creation process. The Kubert school is also doing online classes, but something that I was told, by Scott Snyder, who he was the writer on Batman for a long time. He just said find a comic you like and reverse engineer it.
David Pepose:
Literally you just write the script panel by panel, line by line, side effect by side effect, number it all. And that will help you figure out what the metric and pacing of the comic is. I'm a big fan of guys like Rick Remender, for example. He's very propulsive with his action choreography. People like Dan Slott who are really big on the characterization side of things.
David Pepose:
So being able to look at their work not just as a critic but just even break it down into a metric that's been really helpful for me in terms of learning how to write the unique language of comics, figuring out how many panels are in a page, how many words can you fit per balloon without drowning out the artwork. It's an ongoing process and I encourage you start writing with some shorts. They don't have to be good. You don't have to show them to anybody. You just have to finish and then kind of learn each time that you finishing a short. That's my advice anyway.
Elliot Maggin:
I once got a submission from a guy who owned a comic shop. It was a 35 page part one of an eight part story, a script. And I told him you're literate for heaven's sakes, you know where to put the commas, but write a six page story with an ending. And he accused me, I started talking about structure I had this whole four hours structure routine I do. And he stopped me and accused me of being a Republican. Crazy. I don't think I've spoken to him since.
Michelle Miller:
All right. I have another question for you guys. We have a current Brandeis student who's interested in getting graphic novels. So he's a film major creative writing minor with a general interest in comics who was thinking about writing his own. Would you recommend teaming up with an aspiring comic artist to write something? Would you recommend he just do it on his own? First, what would you guys recommend?
Elliot Maggin:
Yes.
Arnon Shorr:
Yeah.
Elliot Maggin:
Find an artist. I always used to find artists at the Kubert school. Wherever I needed a new artist, I call up Joe Kubert and say, "Send me somebody." There are kids out there they're starving just to do the work.
David Pepose:
My first artist, I did exactly what Elliot was saying. My first artist was a recent graduate from Savannah College of Art and Design. And that was our first book together was a book called Spencer & Locke. You want to find people who are as young and hungry as you are. The one thing that I will say to be a little contrarian, is you want to make sure first off that you can go the distance with this script before you bring anybody else into it. You want to make sure that this script is the thing that you'll... That's the hill you want to die on, so to speak. Because again, this is going to be a marathon for you.
David Pepose:
I know you're a film in creative writing minor. I don't know if you've taken any of the screenwriting classes, but imagine writing a screenplay and then imagine also art directing a film on top of all that, and sell-financing it and then that's not counting your own publicity and if you feel ready for that, yes. That's my only regret as a comics creator is that I wish I had started 10 years sooner. And I feel like it will be the hardest job you ever do, but I think it will be the most worthwhile.
Jonathan Lang:
The other thing I'm going to add about finding an artist that I think is really really important, make sure they're vetted, make sure that you have some referrals. Because I think sometimes people's enthusiasm for the work, sometimes supersedes their ability to get it done. I think obviously listen, life also happens. It is a marathon and artists occasionally drop out. But I do think it's really really important. And I had the luxury, I was part of a studio in New York. So all of my artists were references and that enthusiastic person you might meet at a convention or even at a school may not simply have the goods yet, and that's the truth. So you really really have to make sure that that person is vetted and committed and all in on the project because it's a marriage. I'm not going to lie when you're committed to a book, it's a marriage.
Arnon Shorr:
I have a funny story about finding an artist, I'm a filmmaker. I knew nothing about the comics world at all. But it turns out the artist I got for my book is somebody I've known for more than a decade. I just had no idea he was an artist. I knew him as the guy who hired me to teach film classes at a summer camp. And it wasn't until a decade later that I happened to see, and this is Josh Edelglass he's actually on this call. Hi Josh! I happened to see some work of his that he posted to Facebook just when I was starting to look around for somebody to collaborate with. So I had the benefit of at least from a personality level of pre-vetting my artists for 10 years before we started working together.
Elliot Maggin:
I got a less funny story about finding an artist. Well, it was annoying. I was editing at a startup publishing company in LA when I first came here. And this friend of mine called me up a very good artist, really successful guy. And he said, I got these two people you should be aware of. And he sends me over samples from these two guys. And I happened to be looking for an anchor so I called up one of them and I said, let me send you a script. I figured my friend referred them. And the samples were great.
Elliot Maggin:
Let me send you over a script. And I sent him a 20 page script to ink and he sent it back to me it was a piece of crap. He would do triangular fingers that came to a point. It was just awful. And I told him I wasn't going to pay him for it. I had to hire another inker to do finishes, to get rid of his inks and redraw it as if he were doing the pencils too. And he just got on the phone with me and tried to expropriate me. And I said, "Okay, who did the samples?" I said the girl in the samples looks just like Jenny, Howie's wife, his boss' wife,
Elliot Maggin:
the guy who referred him. And he said, "No, I never met her." I said, "Okay. So how do you explain that this work is so inadequate?" And he said, "Well, I'm just not good enough to do a whole 20 page story." I said, "Well, your samples indicated that your were. Clearly, my friend did the samples and send them to me as a favor to him. It was too much of a favor it didn't work. So, getting somebody who's vetted, doesn't always work. You just have to go with your gut sometimes."
Jonathan Lang:
I also have to add one thing, especially now. And as people are looking to artists, sometimes Instagram is a good way that people have sought out, but it's very important to understand that an Instagram image of a character, a branded character is not panel to panel storytelling. And there are some artists out there who draw incredible versions of Wolverine and you want them to be this thing, but that's not telling a comic book story, that is not a comic book page. So it's very important that you see sequentials not just character designs.
Michelle Miller:
Love it. guys, this is great advice to end on. We're at the couple minute mark which is crazy. I want to end it really quickly on twofold. One, how can we support you? How can we get your work? How can we follow you? If you could just write some of that down in the chat, we'd love to buy your stuff, we'd love to follow you on Instagram, on social... There we go. We've got one book right at the ready! Excellent. I love it.
Elliot Maggin:
It doesn't involve people flying under their own power.
Michelle Miller:
Love it. We want to support you. And then second of all, if you're open for people who would love it. We want to support Brandeis. If you could also put them in Facebook groups, we'd love to get this out to the community and additionally if you're open, the panelist or anyone who's open to, maybe mentoring or being open for people to re- write to them, we do have people who have asked me, how can we get in touch with the panelist? So that is something you're interested even just on social media, by email or if you are not is just totally feel comfortable. Feel free to add that in the chat. I know a couple of you for sure are on Instagram, couple of you might not be, totally fine. How can we support you?
Arnon Shorr:
Certainly following on social media helps.
Michelle Miller:
Yes. I know Arnon and Jonathan are just there. Their names are easy to find. David wrote, you can follow me on Twitter. Oh no, he has the whose thing written. Just fantastic. This really helps. Open to chatting. Yes. Love it. Okay, great. This is fantastic. We want to make sure that we're mindful of everyone's time, including the panelists and including our guests and all of you guys listening. Thank you guys so much. This is fantastic. We want to make this a monthly thing. We have a bunch of other events that we've done including our Arnon's film again, on the website. And we are trying to do this every month.
Michelle Miller:
If you have ideas for other panels, feel free to write to us. We're so open to it. We want to do this for you guys. This has been amazing. Thank you guys to our panelists, thank you to Courtney. She's the person who's behind all of the institutional advancement from Brandeis. Pat Podcast Elliot Makes Stuff Up. Jodiwynne.com. Love it. Thank you guys so much. Arnon did you want to say something before we go?
Arnon Shorr:
Just thank you. You covered it, Jody, Jonathan, Elliot, David-
Michelle Miller:
Thank you.
Arnon Shorr:
It's been a pleasure.
Jonathan Lang:
It's a pleasure. Thanks for having us.
Arnon Shorr:
Thanks for everybody who've showed up, and listened, and asked questions. We're doing this for you and you make us feel valuable. So, thanks for being an audience.